m@Robertson
Well-known member
Totally understandable. All that raw power is difficult to handle when unleashed
Throttle as a safety feature.
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Many riders of so called legal eBikes are paranoid that the riders of high powered eBikes are going to ruin it for everyone. As the owner of both kinds of bikes I understand the concern. If they ban eBikes from the trails, basically the legal eBikes will have nowhere safe to ride, but said ban will have little effect on the fast eBikes that can keep up with traffic.
This is the problem, there's no way to know if a bike is illegal or not unless you can directly observe it doing something illegal. You can blabber about restricting power and speed all you want, but at the press of a button my bike can meet any legal requirement. Rider conduct is what matters, not equipment. Even a legal power eBike can be ridden dangerously on a crowded trail.
We have lots of crowded trails in Dallas with all kinds of electric contraptions, but the only fatality so far was when a bicycle struck a pedestrian over 10 years ago. The worst accident I've seen personally was a One Wheel riding on a perfectly smooth, and level 10' wide city trail where the rider figured out a way to fall down, and compound fracture his ankle in half, bone sticking out and all. When it comes to danger on the trail fast eBikes aren't at the top of the list.
This is the problem, there's no way to know if a bike is illegal or not unless you can directly observe it doing something illegal. You can blabber about restricting power and speed all you want, but at the press of a button my bike can meet any legal requirement. Rider conduct is what matters, not equipment. Even a legal power eBike can be ridden dangerously on a crowded trail.
We have lots of crowded trails in Dallas with all kinds of electric contraptions, but the only fatality so far was when a bicycle struck a pedestrian over 10 years ago. The worst accident I've seen personally was a One Wheel riding on a perfectly smooth, and level 10' wide city trail where the rider figured out a way to fall down, and compound fracture his ankle in half, bone sticking out and all. When it comes to danger on the trail fast eBikes aren't at the top of the list.
Smaug
Well-known member
It depends on how the law is written. For example, one common law in the US is that they shall not have a motor capable of putting out more than 750 W. If I see someone on a bike for which a quick Google search confirms has a motor rated for 1,000 W continuous or 2,000 W peak, the owner would have to prove that it's been modified to REDUCE the power.
There was a post from one fellow here or on bikeforums.net awhile ago where he had bought an eBike and brought it to college, but whenever he parked it at a bike rack, the campus cops would ticket him, as the internet showed it was not Class 1 or 2. (I think that was it) He ignored it a few times until they locked his bike. He wound up having to sell it and get something that fit within the law.
I do agree that it is the PERSON not the object that is the issue, but since we can't really control people as well, the objects are the easier target of laws.
addertooth
Well-known member
If it ever comes down to this point, I own an airbrush and can "rebrand my bike" to a similar looking lesser rated bike. I can also make curved cover-up plates for the hubs which would clearly state my motors are 350 Watts.
But then, I don't do crazy things on my bike and draw attention to it.
I will admit the Wired Freedom bike has been singing its siren song at me lately. But then, it is labelled from the factory as a class 2 bike. You just have to enter the controller menu to "unlock it" for higher ratings. It is a single motor bike (60V battery) which can hit an honest 38 MPH when unlocked.
But then, I don't do crazy things on my bike and draw attention to it.
I will admit the Wired Freedom bike has been singing its siren song at me lately. But then, it is labelled from the factory as a class 2 bike. You just have to enter the controller menu to "unlock it" for higher ratings. It is a single motor bike (60V battery) which can hit an honest 38 MPH when unlocked.
Don't most of the non normie eBikes come from the factory already with a selection of lower power levels? Doesn't that complicate any kind of equipment restriction. That's why I believe rider conduct is the only thing that can be policed, same as all other motor vehicles.
Smaug
Well-known member
Yes, but the point is that law is based on what the motor is CAPABLE of, rather than the setting.
Kind of like how motorcycles can’t go on the highway if they’re smaller than 150cc. Doesn’t matter how fast it is driven.
Motors don't really have a certain capability, that's mainly determined by the controller. You'll never find the bottom of this can of worms. Rider conduct otoh is easy to police.
NWA Cycling
Member
I have a Trek verve+3 and an Aventon Abound. The Abound has a throttle and I agree that starting with the throttle in the Abound is a nice option given that this bike weighs 81 pounds.
Here's a good example of the reality of trying to limit power. Starting about 4:45 the rider explains the bike is limited to 20 mph stock, but the factory will give you a code to unlock 35 mph for off road riding if you sign a waver.
NWA Cycling
Member
The city of Fayetteville, AR just recently released a change to their city ordinances that restrict bikes with 750w or higher in their trails. They didn’t take into consideration that many of the cargo bikes/heavier bikes need this higher wattage and don’t consider that even with the 750w they are still limited to 20mph with the assist. My personal opinion is that NO gas powered vehicle should be allowed on trails and cycling paths. And rather than focus on the wattage of the battery, the real emphasis should be on the actual speed of the bike. Our Greenway has a 15mph speed limit and all manner of bikes routinely exceed that.
100% agree. Actually like it or not, there's no other way to effectively police the trails besides an outright draconian ban, but even that would fail, because of federal laws guaranteeing access. Yes, localities can ban eBikes from a trail, but if they do they risk losing all federal funding for the trail.
Smaug
Well-known member
It's not easy to police though. Police haven't traditionally policed bike trails, at least in my area. They don't even have enough funding to do their current jobs that they have been doing for the last 40 years. Now
Agreed, but then we would need to pay to have motorcycle cops on the trails with radar guns. Where's that money going to come from? It's not going to happen until people start dying because of it. It's a sad reality. "Show me the bodies" is the expression.
What if more cops are hired with the intent to police the trails? Won't it be tempting to assign them to take down drug dealers and murderers, instead of this relatively small problem of ours?
This is why it's a such non issue, except in the heads bicyclers that usually are guilty of what they accuse you of (riding too fast), or worryworts, typically with not much riding experience. When you consider all the real dangers that people die from, trail fatalities aren't even on the radar, and I don't believe they ever will be. City trails have a way of self policing, because if anyone rides like an ass, everyone becomes a karen, and in that case it's for good reason.
m@Robertson
Well-known member
This is an old comment but I was just going thru the thread from the start and just saw this for the first time. I have to point out that this is only possible for someone who has set up their bike for throttling. As in they ride it like a motorcycle and the bike is set up like one (the typical Super73 kind of setup comes to mind as the shining example but also bikes like @biknut has with the seat slammed down low). For bikes like that, planting a foot while in the saddle is a straightforward and natural move and the seat is lowered to allow that.
But for bikes set up for cycling, where you have near-full extension of the leg at the bottom of the pedal stroke, it is not possible to touch the ground while in the saddle. The only way to plant a foot is to stand up off of the saddle on the crankarms, then lower yourself one foot at a time to stand on the ground. When standing at say a stoplight, the saddle is touching the small of your back or maybe the top of your butt. To plant just a foot, or even get it onto the ground, you have to stand on one of the crankarms, lower yourself on one leg, then hop along trying not to crash. Its strictly a desperation maneuver (and liable to give those who attempt it a serious nutcracker as a reward).
At stoplights I will often coast up to the curb at the side of the intersection, which is raised off the road 6-8 inches and that is high enough to put a foot down.
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Smaug
Well-known member
Why was it an odd comment? I'm trying to figure out how throttle would be construed as a safety feature, assuming it would somehow prevent falling. I was pointing out that the bike is no easier to keep from falling whether throttle is used or not. (assuming everything else is equal)
I guess you're saying that if throttle is used and the seat is lowered to allow having feet on the ground while the butt is on the seat that is somehow safer than standing on the pedals and rolling to a stop? I think that's a skill most of us mastered when we were 7, and I don't consider it any less safe than keeping the butt on the seat.
Maybe you're right though; my wife doesn't know this technique; she was not much of a bike rider as a kid.
I do The Curb Trick too, and sometimes even keep myself propped up against light posts, sign posts, building sides, etc. Not for safety though; just for convenience. ;-)
m@Robertson
Well-known member
Put your glasses on and read it again... It was an "old" comment not an odd comment.
You made the comment in a post quite some time ago and I just saw it.
m@Robertson
Well-known member
No I am saying that riders who have bicycles that are set up properly for pedaling cannot do the thing you said to do. Its well known that slamming the saddle down is bad for pedaling efficiency (and for knees if pedaling), but its a common thing for people with motorcycle experience coming into ebikes where setting up the seat like that is perfectly normal - and allows for planting a foot like that. But such a thing is physically impossible on a normal bicycle set up properly.
Here is just one of many sources describing the fitment process:
Basic Bike Fit
Every body’s different and dialing in your bike so that it’s the perfect fit for you is an important step in making your bike “yours” and getting the most out of your pedal sessions. Performance, comfort, enjoyment – they’re all dependent on a good fit, so today we’ll take a look at the basics...
www.purecycles.com
And it has handy pictures. This is proper leg extension and as you can see the foot is a few inches up over the ground. How would you put a foot down safely while remaining in the saddle, then?
This is exactly what I was describing above as to what it takes to get that foot down. You have to get off the saddle and stand up, and that only happens when the bike has already stopped unless you want to be singing soprano from a hospital bed.
... unless you do a 'motorcycle fit' (I just made that term up) which entails slamming the seat down low, which then lessens the leg extension and commits the sin of sending your knees up towards your chin at the top of the pedal stroke.
And for a ROFL closer to that point, the author even did another picture with the seat slammed. Green check good. Red X bad
I didn't actually read the article I just found it via a google search... but if you look up proper bicycle fitment and leg extension you will see this over and over again, with less amusing illustrations.
m@Robertson
Well-known member
I've never heard it put that way but that is absolutely true in my view for many reasons, all of them depending on the situation of the moment.
Maybe some of that certainty comes from riding on the street on the clock, so to speak, and not on recreational trails at leisure. Or maybe not. As a heart attack survivor I can say the throttle let me get on the bike period early on as I was re-acclimating by body to the exercise regimen. Years later its not an essential requirement to ward off chest pain, but it can still provide a respite if I need to enforce a break but don't want to pull over and stop.
