Smaug
Well-known member
Is it also illegal on the next class of eBike, the Speed Pedelec class?
m@Robertson
Well-known member
Not quite. They first picked up during early COVID, exploded in the second year-plus and afterwards, as restrictins eased and cars got back on the road, have effectively collapsed. You're seeing deep discounts everywhere, and a few closures here and there. I know of one major manufacturer who I shouldn't name, who expected ebike sales in the ballpark of 220,000 units for 2023 and expects now to maybe only hit 80,000. A different manufacturer just cancelled a 50,000 bike order. You would immediately recognize both manufacturers' names.
There is a huge shakeout in the ebike industry going on right now, but it is not just ebikes. We'll see some players go belly up as is already happening in the regular cycling channel.
SoCal is the leading headline grabber. In particular the San Diego area but also communities in the LA Basin. Its driven primarily by kids who are running amok after parents bought legions of little rugrats ebikes for general transportation, and kids being kids (and poor parenting being apparently more common than it should be) the expected mayhem has ensued, prompting a rash of city-council meetings, enforcement and new community-specific regulations. If you heard about a California ebike driving license being proposed (which is not an accurate description but it was often headlined that way) it was a direct outgrowth of this issue.
HoppyUK
Member
It's worth remembering that a torque sensor is actually just a throttle that is operated by your leg, while being permanently connected to the pedals, ie it is less convenient and controllable than a hand throttle, and completely useless if you have both feet on the ground. I will never buy an ebike without a throttle.
And throttles are not illegal in UK. They are limited to 4mph (perfect for safe launches and low-speed maneuvers) and my RadRunner-Plus has a conformity sticker. It is also possible to have a legal full-time throttle if you get the bike individually certified, for a small fee. It's a quirk/loophole from historic UK legislation. Wisper ebikes can have this done from new. Edit: link https://wisperbikes.com/full-throttle-option/
And throttles are not illegal in UK. They are limited to 4mph (perfect for safe launches and low-speed maneuvers) and my RadRunner-Plus has a conformity sticker. It is also possible to have a legal full-time throttle if you get the bike individually certified, for a small fee. It's a quirk/loophole from historic UK legislation. Wisper ebikes can have this done from new. Edit: link https://wisperbikes.com/full-throttle-option/
Edmund Shane
New member
The throttle on my eTrike conversion is a must for safety and power-when-I-need-it, ride. In fact I am researching an electric conversion for my 26” cruiser, “throttle only”. Install a Bafang 48V 500W direct drive rear hub system—lose the peddle assist system, peddles, sprocket, chain etc. Lower the seat and handlebars, install a simple cross bar foot rest, (flat footed on the ground when at rest). Such a casual, slow ride should not be compared to an electric motor cycle or electric scooter. Is this doable? All advice considere.
HoppyUK
Member
Maybe you're inadvertently creating another class of electric vehicle. The legislators have an unenviable task covering all the options these days, with something new appearing every week it seems. There must be dozens of them now, with anything from one to eight wheels.
My suggestion would be to simply drop all the confusing and irrelevant nonsense about pedals and throttles and artificial power restrictions and just impose speed limits as we do with normal road traffic. That is also a pretty blunt tool when the real problem is not the vehicle but the rider/driver, however, we are not short of laws as it stands, just that they're very hard to enforce and widely ignored. Inappropriate speed is a major issue when pedestrians and bikes and cars get together and, relatively speaking, that is easier to enforce.
However, if we really want to get on top of this issue and have the world running sweetly on e-power, then we need new infrastructure - basically, bike lanes. That's a huge undertaking, but it can be done, eg Holland/Belgium etc.
Edmund Shane
New member
HoppyUK: Heh, thank you so much for your response and comments. Yes, ebike legislation and laws are strictly enforced here as well, ie., speed and where we can ride. Fortunately, locally we have allot of bike trails with fewer restrictions than on city streets. Via the eBike forum I will keep you posted re my “throttle only” conversion project.
NWA Cycling
Member
I have one bike without and one with. And yes, they come in handy. I live in NW Arkansas and it is quite hilly.
Edmund Shane
New member
For safety and sudden go-power, in my experience a throttle is essential.
NWA Cycling
Member
Yesterday I had to make a stop (on my cargo bike) on a pretty steep part of the trail. I used the throttle to start and get over that hump-it was perfect.
Smaug
Well-known member
Out of habit, I find myself downshifting when I have time as I come to a stop. I'm starting to learn that if i get caught in too high of a gear, I can just start pedaling and the torque sensor on my Aventon Level.2 is very quick to realize I need some juice. After maybe only 5° it knows, if there is real torque applied.
With cadence sensors, throttle engagement due to pedaling takes longer for safety's sake; the bike has to see enough pedaling that it knows the rider didn't just bump it.
I would say throttle is a necessary feature a lot more for bikes that only have cadence sensors.
It's also worth noting that not all firmware is created equally. With a torque sensor and well-refined firmware, it is a VERY natural-feeling experience and we just feel stronger than we are.
m@Robertson
Well-known member
It doesn't work like this on both KT hub motor controllers and Bafang mid drives, although on the Bafang you have to dig in and change the settings. On my 2wd bikes the KT engages very quickly with a basic 12-magnet sensor. Specifically if the crankarm circle is a clock, then it engages from midnight when it gets to 2. I think the 8-magnet sensors are more common but I have some 12's I use. That lets me engage front PAS immediately and then delay PAS engagement on the rear (BBSHD) motor until after the bike is moving, which eliminates the strain on the drivetrain often complained about on powerful mids.
But if I wanted to, the BBSHD can engage immediately, and there are settings that govern how hard it ramps up power so even if you bump it you probably wouldn't feel inclined to instinctively grab the brakes.
And if I do want instant power, I can always flick the throttle, which I do just like NWA Cycling described on my front motor, typically. From a stop I give the front wheel a 1-count of throttle and the rest is pas unless there is something unusual going on, in which case I can goose it as needed at the moment.
With that said, in discussions with others, I've heard how crude many cadence pas systems are. The Lectric bikes are just straight on/off switches from what owners have told me. If that was what I had to put up with on cadence sensing, I'd look down on it too.
HoppyUK
Member
As discussed, it's not just a simple case of torque sensor vs cadence vs throttle vs legs and the ultimate system is perhaps a well-considered blend them all. At the end of the day, they're all just different ways of applying power to the wheel with just the right amount at just the right time.
I have ridden expensive torque sensor mid-motor bikes that were wholly unsatisfactory from my point of view (never mind the fact that they didn't have a throttle either), my wife and I have two cheapo hub-drive folding bikes that have the worst cadence sensing PAS system, yet my hub-drive RadRunner-Plus with EggRider (ie carefully customised settings, plus throttle) is hard to beat IMHO.
One of my other interests is photography and photo forums have a similar and perpetual debate about exposure modes - aperture priority vs shutter priority vs full auto vs manual. But they're all just different routes to the same destination - correct exposure. Fortunately, every decent camera has them all so you can choose whichever one you prefer according to the situation.
I have ridden expensive torque sensor mid-motor bikes that were wholly unsatisfactory from my point of view (never mind the fact that they didn't have a throttle either), my wife and I have two cheapo hub-drive folding bikes that have the worst cadence sensing PAS system, yet my hub-drive RadRunner-Plus with EggRider (ie carefully customised settings, plus throttle) is hard to beat IMHO.
One of my other interests is photography and photo forums have a similar and perpetual debate about exposure modes - aperture priority vs shutter priority vs full auto vs manual. But they're all just different routes to the same destination - correct exposure. Fortunately, every decent camera has them all so you can choose whichever one you prefer according to the situation.
Jbangs
Member
Great points of view to read through. No throttle on my bikes but there are times I wish I had one. Usually on uphill starts at a light or stop sign. My wife rides a RAD city and I get a bit jealous when she zooms off on an uphill startup and I am doing the "skateboard pushoff" multiple times to get started. 
Sounds like hell on earth.
HoppyUK
Member
Well, not quite. As soon as the pedals are turning, that is as soon as you've got underway safely (and elegantly), full throttle power is available at all speeds up to the legal limit (15.5mph).
In practise, this means you can always have throttle available perfectly legally. Although the restrictions are archaic and nonsensical, I can live with that.
I have a BBSHD on a Road/Gravel bike with road tires on it. It has both the throttle and pedal assist; however, I almost never use the throttle. The only time I ever used the throttle is when I was testing it. The reason I primarily use the pedal assist is because I have my pedal assist dialed in. This took some time and testing, but now I have it so at the 9 levels I get great power with pedal assist. Add the power from my legs on top of that and I have a real quick bike. Definitely faster than just the throttle. If you are not someone that is willing to get into the settings of the motor and dial it in, you might find the throttle plus peddling would be a good feature.
I also have a Turbo Levo mountain bike which does not have a throttle and that bike is sweet. Very well balance on the motor output and pedal assist. I used this as a guide when I was setting up the BBSHD. I tried to get them the same; however, the Turbo Levo is better in this area. Now the Turbo Levo was more than double the cost of building my BBSHD bike.
One more thing to look at is what type of rider are you. I am out for exercise and going fast. When I ride my bikes, I am out pushing my heart rate to the max and getting the best work out I can get. The benefit is I go twice as far and much faster for the same amount of energy.
I also have a Turbo Levo mountain bike which does not have a throttle and that bike is sweet. Very well balance on the motor output and pedal assist. I used this as a guide when I was setting up the BBSHD. I tried to get them the same; however, the Turbo Levo is better in this area. Now the Turbo Levo was more than double the cost of building my BBSHD bike.
One more thing to look at is what type of rider are you. I am out for exercise and going fast. When I ride my bikes, I am out pushing my heart rate to the max and getting the best work out I can get. The benefit is I go twice as far and much faster for the same amount of energy.
HoppyUK
Member
There is a much broader range of cyclists now than there ever was before we all got electrified - and their new wants and needs are very different. To put that another way, anyone who wears Lycra, or has their seatpost adjusted for optimum leg extension, or has ever timed themselves on a run... Well, they're going to struggle to understand a large new sector of today's market.
Smaug
Well-known member
Welcome to the forum!
Smaug
Well-known member
I can tell you as one of those who wears lycra/spandex that you're right. I'm in my local bike club and 90% of the membership are roadies and their winter riding is only in Zwift or Peloton in their basements.
A couple of the older members have gone on to Domane+ electric road bikes, as they wanted to be able to keep up with the group.
I'm the only one in the club who rides an eBike that's not the racey road style. During the summer, I'm on my regular road bike with them for club rides.
I ride a Class 2 ebike, throttle ONLY. I am disabled, and simply cannot pedal. Period. 20 years ago, I could ride a pedal bike 50 miles a day. I just turned 65, and have been disabled for over 10 years. I can't walk half a block. I have to use the electric carts in Walmart. Both knees and both hip joints are completely shot. But it doesn't stop there. All the soft tissue (muscles, tendons, ligaments, cartilage) is severely damaged, and no longer stretches like it is supposed to. I also have severe arthritis, and diabetic neuropathy, so I can barely feel my feet. A throttle ebike is the only way I can ride a bike anymore. It has to have a step through frame. I live near Phoenix, AZ. There is a 35+ mile multi use path along a canal bank close to where I live. I ride on that a lot. At around 7-10 mph. Just because the bike will do 20+ mph doesn't mean you have to ride it that fast. There are people walking, jogging, riding pedal bikes, pushing baby strollers, etc. on this path. I ride just fast enough to keep from falling over. It's sure better than a mobility scooter.
It is NOT safe to ride in the bike lanes. Even back when I rode a pedal bike (my last pedal bike was a mountain bike with street tires, higher bars and a cruiser seat) I had things thrown at me, I had idiots pull into the bike lane with their cars to block me when they saw me riding past stopped traffic, I have been hit with mirrors, I have had idiots stick something out the window of their vehicle to try and hit me. Here pretty much everything but residential streets are 45 mph, and everybody goes 60 mph, and the cops completely ignore it. I don't have problems like that riding on the canal bank. There are a couple of potential problems though. By far the biggest one is flat tires. We have a type of thorn here called a "goathead" and if you run over one, you will have a flat tire. And they are everywhere. I ride a Sixthreezero bike with 26" tires (it is almost to find ANY bike with 26" tires anymore) with 4mm thick puncture resistant tubes in them, and a sealant made for motorcycles called Ride On in them. I would probably be unable to fix a flat tire by myself out on the road or bike path. At least on a heavy ebike. The other issue would be running out of power. Internal combustion powered vehicles are not allowed on the canal path, and cross roads are a mile apart. If something happened, I could call for help, but nobody would have a way to reach me. They would have to walk or ride a bike from the nearest cross road, and if they couldn't fix the problem, they would not be able to get me out. I do have an extra battery. I carry a small 12V compressor that can air up a bicycle tire several times in case of a slow leak.
It is NOT safe to ride in the bike lanes. Even back when I rode a pedal bike (my last pedal bike was a mountain bike with street tires, higher bars and a cruiser seat) I had things thrown at me, I had idiots pull into the bike lane with their cars to block me when they saw me riding past stopped traffic, I have been hit with mirrors, I have had idiots stick something out the window of their vehicle to try and hit me. Here pretty much everything but residential streets are 45 mph, and everybody goes 60 mph, and the cops completely ignore it. I don't have problems like that riding on the canal bank. There are a couple of potential problems though. By far the biggest one is flat tires. We have a type of thorn here called a "goathead" and if you run over one, you will have a flat tire. And they are everywhere. I ride a Sixthreezero bike with 26" tires (it is almost to find ANY bike with 26" tires anymore) with 4mm thick puncture resistant tubes in them, and a sealant made for motorcycles called Ride On in them. I would probably be unable to fix a flat tire by myself out on the road or bike path. At least on a heavy ebike. The other issue would be running out of power. Internal combustion powered vehicles are not allowed on the canal path, and cross roads are a mile apart. If something happened, I could call for help, but nobody would have a way to reach me. They would have to walk or ride a bike from the nearest cross road, and if they couldn't fix the problem, they would not be able to get me out. I do have an extra battery. I carry a small 12V compressor that can air up a bicycle tire several times in case of a slow leak.
