throttle or no throttle? that is the question?

[m@Robertson]

If you like pedaling why do you want a ebike?

So I can pedal and get exercise. Same with everyone else. If I wanted a motorcycle I'd buy a real one.

With the PAS off you can still pedal your heart out and use the throttle to add just the right amount of assist very smoothly.

No. You are turning an automatic, thought-free process into a manual one you have to think about and work. My most recent bike build I had to do that for a month or so while a bad PAS sensor replacement was shipped to me. Once I got it installed it was like a giant relief... the bike is doing the same job and now it is an unconscious, automatic process rather than something I have to think about doing in addition to pedaling. The world doesn't end if you have to remember to add throttle all the time, but the bike sure as hell works better when you let it do its job.

And if you want more than your PAS gives you. Thats when you add throttle since of course its always there for use on demand..

 

[Fred Medrano]

Speaking of throttles, I have a question. I have one on my Bafang mid-drive conversion. My throttle seems to be "digital". It's either off or "off to the races", which is why I try to avoid using it. Is something wrong with it or are all trottles like this? I'd like it to be more like a car accelerator where my speed depends on how far down I push the accelerator. Thx

 

[Fred Medrano]

Newbie here. I converted my bike with a Bafang mid-drive which came with a throttle. I don't like it because it seems to be digital, either off or max acceleration. Is it supposed to be like that? I'd prefer it be more like a car accelerator where the speed depends on how far down I press the accelerator.

 

[jimthecanoeist]

Newbie here. I converted my bike with a Bafang mid-drive which came with a throttle. I don't like it because it seems to be digital, either off or max acceleration. Is it supposed to be like that? I'd prefer it be more like a car accelerator where the speed depends on how far down I press the accelerator.

So it's acting like a switch - either on or off. That is either a defective throttle system or the bike is designed with such a throttle (yuck). E-bike throttles often use a magnetic arrangement using the "Hall effect" in order to provide a linear response from the controller. Typically, there is 45 degrees of rotation, smoothly representing zero-to-maximum boost. Here is a video where one is disassembled and tested.

 

[m@Robertson]

Speaking of throttles, I have a question. I have one on my Bafang mid-drive conversion. My throttle seems to be "digital". It's either off or "off to the races", which is why I try to avoid using it. Is something wrong with it or are all trottles like this?

What you are describing is the common default behavior for a BBSxx throttle, and the good news is there is an easy fix for it. Once you make the adjustment your throttle should be able to feed in as little as 50w if you feather it to as much as a bazillion if you mash on it and laugh like a maniac.

You will have to get into the Bafang's settings interface and change a couple things around. Everybody calls it 'programming' but as a programmer I can say... it ain't

I am skipping ahead a little here, but this is what you would change. The screen below is the throttle adjustment screen. Your start voltage is almost certainly the default, which is 11, and your End Voltage is set to 35. Thats what you have to change. If you set it to a wider 42 (which strictly speaking is a value of 4.2v) then you will create a wider range of throttle adjustment that - despite the small numeric change - will make all the difference in throttle behavior.

There's more to this, like setting the upper limit of the throttle to a designated assist level of 9, and making sure Level 9 is 100% motor power, but we're way ahead of ourselves here. Go read this, follow the links for the tools you need (a cheap cable and a free app for your Android phone). Ideally you plug the cable into your phone and the bike's display port and work from there. But there are alternatives linked and described in this article:

BBSHD Programming For The Pedaling Cyclist (2023 Update)

Explore enhanced BBSHD programming for pedal assist settings that don't let the bike run away from you, and throttle settings gentle on the drivetrain.

talesontwowheels.com

And yes I called it 'programming' in the title but thats just to keep Google happy.

ALSO: If your throttle really does suck/is defective, this is probably the best thumb throttle on the market at present for BBSxx motors.

 

[Smaug]

It depends. I have eBikes with and without throttles.

On my Aventon Level.2 commuter, I almost never use the throttle. I only use it on REALLY hot days when I'm commuting to work and don't want to sweat at ALL. The rest of the time, I use the gears and torque sensor, which lets the motor kick in immediately when I start pedaling.

On my Lectric XP Lite I use it often to get rolling, as it just has the one rather high gear. My kids use the throttle often; they love it. Feel like they're getting away with something. It also can come in handy when riding with others, as we can match the speed exactly using the throttle, but not with pedal assist and the various PAS settings.

My wife's Electra doesn't have a throttle and she doesn't miss it. It has a torque sensor and doesn't really need it.

I have a Juiced HyperScrambler 2 eMoped on the way and I intend to use the throttle at least 80% of the time, only pedaling to help it get started and maybe up hills a bit. I don't expect it will be comfortable to pedal with the bench seat and I'm really buying it as a scooter for taking longer joyrides in the summer. Plus it's 120 lbs. and I expect it will be a bear to pedal around; it looks to be geared a bit on the high side.

 

[Zbigniew]

I’m against people who just throttle BUT I have one. I love the feel of peddling but if I injure a muscle while riding, I get home with a little help from my thumb.

 

[JohnnyBeans]

The reason I'm asking this question is because I'm looking at buying an ebike in the future. How important is having a throttle on an ebike? Does anyone who bought a ebike with a throttle wishes they had not bought an ebike without a throttle or vice versa? Please list of pros and cons to a throttle.

I wouldn’t get a bike without a throttle. Why? Safety and convenience. You can have both feet on the ground and gently start with throttle. Short taps. You can also get going before you start pedaling. Imho, the companies discontinued throttles for legal liability—not convenience of the user. Thumb throttles are better. With a half throttle if your hand moves on the grip you can accidentally hit the throttle.

 

[Riding Fat]

I rarely use the throttle, but there are two spots on my commute where I don't feel safe due to the speed of the traffic and the narrow shoulder. If I feel I need to get out of the danger zone quickly I'll blip the throttle just in those sections.

Even from a dead stop I just pedal. I just feel I have more control of the start that way.

 

[m@Robertson]

A timely headline:

Bike shop brands are finally giving e-bike riders what they want: throttles

Bike shop brands are finally making more e-bikes with throttles. Here's why these companies have stopped avoiding throttles and joined in.

electrek.co

 

[neutron]

I think the key to convincing more manufacturers to incorporate throttles into their product is to emphasize the throttle as a safety feature. As an older person I really appreciate a throttle to get started from a stand-still and low speed maneuvering where balance is tougher if you have to pedal. The throttle that only kicks in after a speed of 3.5 mph is reached is only half useful and misses out on being a true safety feature. As more buyers realise the benefits of having a fully functional throttle and the demand increases for same, manufacturers will have to oblige. My fear is that local legislators who are notoriously ignorant of issues they vote on will assume throttles are somehow dangerous to the public and try to restrict them "for the safety of the children" with licensing and taxes to follow.

 

[m@Robertson]

I think the key to convincing more manufacturers to incorporate throttles into their product is to emphasize the throttle as a safety feature. As an older person I really appreciate a throttle to get started from a stand-still and low speed maneuvering where balance is tougher if you have to pedal. The throttle that only kicks in after a speed of 3.5 mph is reached is only half useful and misses out on being a true safety feature. As more buyers realise the benefits of having a fully functional throttle and the demand increases for same, manufacturers will have to oblige. My fear is that local legislators who are notoriously ignorant of issues they vote on will assume throttles are somehow dangerous to the public and try to restrict them "for the safety of the children" with licensing and taxes to follow.

Well, unfortunately thats not going to amount to much. Here's the thing: Ebikes don't have throttles because they are not allowed via regulations in the EU. Since the EU buys many, many more ebikes than the USA does, ebike manufacturers conform to EU regulations. That is also the reason so many big brand bikes have motors rated for 250w.

What has to happen is the USA ebike market has to grow to the point where manufacturers will make special USA versions. Specialized jumped in with both feet with the Globe brand. We'll see what happens across the marketplace.

But I did find it amusing that a reasonably unbiased look at what ebike buyers want based on their buying behavior is bikes with throttles. All of the hand-wringing and pearl-clutching we see in forums over the topic is just niche noise.

 

[Smaug]

Matt, do you KNOW that Europe buys many more eBikes Than the USA or are you assuming that?

I would bet that CA and NYC buy as many eBikes as all of Europe does.

 

[m@Robertson]

Matt, do you KNOW that Europe buys many more eBikes Than the USA or are you assuming that?

I would bet that CA and NYC buy as many eBikes as all of Europe does.

I know it. Global ebike sales statistics are available. The EU is way larger than the USA, but perhaps more interestingly the Far East is literally an order of magnitude larger than the EU. I am speaking of the domestic market and not the manufacturing source (which is then exported to other parts of the world).

Also I can tell you from being there that probably the city of Amsterdam alone has more ebikes than all of California. I've sat at an intersection with literally 50 other cyclists in a bike lane that is bigger than the auto portion of the road. Sitting at a cafe having lunch on a Friday those 50 cyclists were replaced by 50 more at the next light cycle, and over and over again. Brussels is also packed with bikes to a degree hard to imagine with California eyes, and that doesn't even count the Scandinavian countries. For sure most bikes are not electric, but the sheer overall volume means more ebikes are mixed in than you'll ever see in the most bike-friendly towns here.

 

[m@Robertson]

Matt, do you KNOW that Europe buys many more eBikes Than the USA or are you assuming that?

I would bet that CA and NYC buy as many eBikes as all of Europe does.

Everything current is behind a paywall and its quite expensive, but this old data at least gives you an idea of the spread if not the actual dollar and unit amounts. Expect since 2016 that North America is no longer not on the chart at all, but the EU has gone up commensurately as well, with countries like Germany and the Netherlands now selling more ebikes than they sell bikes.

E-bikes - worldwide sales by region 2016 | Statista

This statistic represents electric bicycle sales worldwide in 2016, by region.

www.statista.com

As I said, this is why we don't have nice things. Its rooted in our automobile culture. Unfortunately Americans treat ebikes and bikes as if they are children's toys and our market size is stunted accordingly.

 

[m@Robertson]

Here's something that is a little more current and shows USA vs. EU alone. Everything forward of 2021 is a projection but still you get the idea. Here you see that USA ebike sales in 2022 were projected to be in the ballpark of less than a million units.

With that number in mind, lets look at the ebike sales in 2022 just for France (its 738,000):

Sales of electric bicycles France 2022 | Statista

The market for e-bikes in France has grown rapidly in the past years, fueled by the boom in cycling during the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.statista.com

I just did a fast Google of the topic. Spend more time and money digging up current data vs. infographics and you will shuffle the numbers around to different values, but the end result will be the same: Far East has enormous numbers, EU has very small ones relative to the Far East, but they dwarf the USA.

 

[Smaug]

As I said, this is why we don't have nice things. Its rooted in our automobile culture. Unfortunately Americans treat ebikes and bikes as if they are children's toys and our market size is stunted accordingly.

Yeah, and for poor people and Mexicans. I'm sure people think I'm poor when they see me riding around on my eBike.
I wonder what it's going to take for American mentality to get beyond cars. I think a lot more crowding. Hopefully the infrastructure then follows.

Here's something that is a little more current and shows USA vs. EU alone. Everything forward of 2021 is a projection but still you get the idea. Here you see that USA ebike sales in 2022 were projected to be in the ballpark of less than a million units.
View attachment 12096

I think that forecast will prove to have underestimated US growth. (by the way eBikes seem to be taking off in the US right now)

With that number in mind, lets look at the ebike sales in 2022 just for France (its 738,000):

Sales of electric bicycles France 2022 | Statista

The market for e-bikes in France has grown rapidly in the past years, fueled by the boom in cycling during the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.statista.com

I just did a fast Google of the topic. Spend more time and money digging up current data vs. infographics and you will shuffle the numbers around to different values, but the end result will be the same: Far East has enormous numbers, EU has very small ones relative to the Far East, but they dwarf the USA.

View attachment 12097

Wow, that explains why Honda is marketing these nasty little 15.5 mph "mopeds" for China and not bringing them elsewhere.

Honda's Efforts

Here are some details on what Honda has done, is doing and plans to do in the future. There's a lot of good info here, and I like that Honda shares their visions. I like the look of the Benly e. It appears to have a nice luggage rack built-in and an optional front basket. Would be good for a...

ebikesforum.com

 

[m@Robertson]

I think that forecast will prove to have underestimated US growth. (by the way eBikes seem to be taking off in the US right now)

I was looking at that and wondering the same thing, but since it came out in 2021 which was after the boom had started, maybe not so much. Plus ebike sales have fallen off of a cliff given what we now can see was only a short boom. Probably if you look at the trend over a few years its not far off. Especially if, as some pundits think, we're only about midway thru the 'bust' period and we have another year to go.

 

[Smaug]

Someone told me, can't remember who or where, that eBike sales started to pick up during COVID and EXPLODED after COVID.

The shop I bought my Level.2 from is an Indian motorcycle shop and they started selling eBikes to make ends meet during COVID-related supply issues when they couldn't get motorcycles.

My local bike shop just started getting a lot more serious about eBikes, but not serious enough to carry cheaper brands yet.

I hear that in CA in coastal towns, people are starting to make a proper nuisance of themselves on eBikes. It's hard to relate to here, as eBikers under about 60 years old are a pretty rare breed. (since eBikes are expensive)

 

[Pinhead]

The reason I'm asking this question is because I'm looking at buying an ebike in the future. How important is having a throttle on an ebike? Does anyone who bought a ebike with a throttle wishes they had not bought an ebike without a throttle or vice versa? Please list of pros and cons to a throttle.

100% illegal in the UK

However if I had the choice, I would fit one, for a simple reason, there are occasions when older or less able due to a disability it helps to "get you going" especially on a hill