Cadence ebikes need automatic PAS step down as you slow down

[ecrawler]

I think this idea would be much better and safer for cadence based ebikes than what is implemented today. As you slow down the PAS level should automatically drop down, in incremental steps, with a lower limit of Level 1. What I mean by lower limit is, if you slow down and come to a complete stop, the automatic feature would take PAS as far down as Level 1. If the rider wants Level 0 they would need to do that manually..

I played around with this idea today on the Aventon Pace 500.2, trying to pretend like a controller was doing the PAS step downs. I think it works great, even on hills.

Say you're moving along at a PAS level of 5 and slow way down or nearly stop, and PAS automatically ratchets its way down to level 1, and then you want to speed back up again. It's a simple matter of bumping up the PAS levels again with your thumb. That is well controlled and way safer than how it is now. The way it is today, if you're moving along at PAS 4 or 5 and either need to slow down unexpectedly, or you're coming up to a curb or whatever and you slow way down. When you start to pedal again you're taking off and it can be kind of crazy, especially if you've moved onto a sidewalk or into a tight space. That can all be avoided if PAS had already stepped its way down incrementally as you slowed down.

I wish Aventon would give the user access to some controls, so this feature could be tested. For a moment I was thinking maybe it could be a setting that the user could choose, but maybe that's not such a good idea if a person forgets what mode they're in. So just keep the feature turned on.

I would never suggest the opposite however, where the PAS level would automatically increase as you speed up.

 

[neutron]

This is where the application of the throttle works for me. If I come to a stop and need to take off again I twist the throttle a bit to get moving before I start pedaling. If I just start pedaling without the throttle, I am not as balanced as I am with just twisting the throttle for 1 or 2 seconds. I regard the throttle as kind of a safety feature.

 

[ecrawler]

This is where the application of the throttle works for me. If I come to a stop and need to take off again I twist the throttle a bit to get moving before I start pedaling. If I just start pedaling without the throttle, I am not as balanced as I am with just twisting the throttle for 1 or 2 seconds. I regard the throttle as kind of a safety feature.

I agree with this. But sometimes the natural thing to do after having to quickly slow down or nearly stop is to start pedaling again, even if just a little for balance. If you were at PAS 5 before you slowed down, then you're in for a real treat when you start to pedal again.

One example, which will likely draw criticism to begin with for being at PAS 4 or 5 while on a sidewalk, is around turns or corners on a sidewalk, or going over curbs. Another is if you're on the road and a car starts to back out of their driveway because they don't see you, so you quickly slow way down. Or if you're on the road but you can tell it's one of those times where it's best to get over and slow down, even off the road a bit, because there's too much happening with cars in both directions. If you start to pedal again at PAS 5, it's just not great.

So far I can't think of any sufficient reason not to have the bike's controller automatically ratchet down the PAS as you slow down.

(Back to the sidewalk thing, I forgot to mention.... I have the PAS top speed at 16mph, which affects PAS only, not throttle. So my PAS 5 is probably like PAS 3 or 4 for a lot of people on the Pace 500.2)

 

[arthurdent18610]

I think this idea would be much better and safer for cadence based ebikes than what is implemented today. As you slow down the PAS level should automatically drop down, in incremental steps, with a lower limit of Level 1. What I mean by lower limit is, if you slow down and come to a complete stop, the automatic feature would take PAS as far down as Level 1. If the rider wants Level 0 they would need to do that manually..

I played around with this idea today on the Aventon Pace 500.2, trying to pretend like a controller was doing the PAS step downs. I think it works great, even on hills.

Say you're moving along at a PAS level of 5 and slow way down or nearly stop, and PAS automatically ratchets its way down to level 1, and then you want to speed back up again. It's a simple matter of bumping up the PAS levels again with your thumb. That is well controlled and way safer than how it is now. The way it is today, if you're moving along at PAS 4 or 5 and either need to slow down unexpectedly, or you're coming up to a curb or whatever and you slow way down. When you start to pedal again you're taking off and it can be kind of crazy, especially if you've moved onto a sidewalk or into a tight space. That can all be avoided if PAS had already stepped its way down incrementally as you slowed down.

I wish Aventon would give the user access to some controls, so this feature could be tested. For a moment I was thinking maybe it could be a setting that the user could choose, but maybe that's not such a good idea if a person forgets what mode they're in. So just keep the feature turned on.

I would never suggest the opposite however, where the PAS level would automatically increase as you speed up.

Why? If you've got cut-offs on the brake levers, a throttle & a brain, why do you need to complicate the electrics further. The simpler the electrics, the less there is to go wrong. Look at today's modern vehicles, there are so many computer modules controlling everything these days, unlike cars of the past & are they any better? Vehicle accidents haven't gone down even with traction control, abs brakes etc.

 

[ecrawler]

Why? If you've got cut-offs on the brake levers, a throttle & a brain, why do you need to complicate the electrics further. The simpler the electrics, the less there is to go wrong. Look at today's modern vehicles, there are so many computer modules controlling everything these days, unlike cars of the past & are they any better? Vehicle accidents haven't gone down even with traction control, abs brakes etc.

I seem to be on an island on this one. It's okay, I don't mind being the only person with the right answer.... But seriously though,..... I don't mind being correct....... But actually serious this time...., I really do think it would be better if while slowing down the bike automatically lowered down the PAS level. It makes me nervous putting my wife on it, cause if she has it at PAS 5, then suddenly slows down to go from the road to the sidewalk and starts to pedal again, it could put her in that groove at the edge of the sidewalk or maybe run over the neighbor's cat.

One thing I didn't realize or think about until reading your post is about the cut-offs on the brake levers. After I read that I had to immediately go out a few minutes ago and test it out. It's kind of nice. If you do forget to lower your PAS and the bike starts to take off too much when you start to pedal again, a quick little tug on the lever without even engaging the brake stops the motor a lot faster than if you stop pedaling. That's a big help.

Switching subjects, I'm going to need to test ride one of the torque sensor bikes again. I've gotten used to the Pace 500.2 with cadence sensor enough that if I were to switch to a torque sensor I'm wondering if I might actually miss the cadence sensor and being in lazy mode. We bought this bike recently for one of my kids and he's been using it a ton but as smaug predicted I end up riding it a lot as well. We're eventually wanting to add a second. Thinking we might want shocks on the front next time, otherwise really like the Pace 500.2.

 

[Smaug]

I think this idea would be much better and safer for cadence based ebikes than what is implemented today. As you slow down the PAS level should automatically drop down, in incremental steps, with a lower limit of Level 1. What I mean by lower limit is, if you slow down and come to a complete stop, the automatic feature would take PAS as far down as Level 1. If the rider wants Level 0 they would need to do that manually..

I played around with this idea today on the Aventon Pace 500.2, trying to pretend like a controller was doing the PAS step downs. I think it works great, even on hills.

I think it's a good idea as an option, but wouldn't want it to be obligatory.

This is where the application of the throttle works for me. If I come to a stop and need to take off again I twist the throttle a bit to get moving before I start pedaling. If I just start pedaling without the throttle, I am not as balanced as I am with just twisting the throttle for 1 or 2 seconds. I regard the throttle as kind of a safety feature.

For some reason, I resist doing this. I know how much inrush current it takes to start with the motor from zero and I'm being cheap with the juice. If I have time to think about it ahead of time, I zip down through the gears first, so pedaling starts in 1st gear. It's one reason I like the lower-end Shimano shifter; I can just zip down through 6 gears all with one thumbstroke. If I stop quickly and don't have time to zip down through the gears, I use some throttle.

So far I can't think of any sufficient reason not to have the bike's controller automatically ratchet down the PAS as you slow down.

Here's one scenario: Imagine you're eBiking through the suburbs at your preferred pace, let's say PAS4 and 15 mph. There are stop signs about every four blocks. You come up to a stop sign. You know that when you resume, you will want to go right back to 15 mph. With your scheme, when you get started again, you'll need to manually click back up to PAS4 with each stop sign, rather than either simply pedaling to start or throttle then pedal.

IMO, Your suggestion is a good one for experienced eBikers to have the option, but it wouldn't be intuitive for a newbie. They would end up fielding all kinds of customer service calls to explain this. (if it were the standard option) It's something that could be there with a deep dive in the menus; the same kind needed to unlock Class 3 speeds.

********************

I think in time, as the higher controller technology becomes more widespread, cadence-only sensing will give way to cadence+torque sensing and this will be a moot point. To me, torque sensing with a throttle option is the best.

 

[ecrawler]

I think in time, as the higher controller technology becomes more widespread, cadence-only sensing will give way to cadence+torque sensing and this will be a moot point. To me, torque sensing with a throttle option is the best.

About the PAS ratchet down idea, I've continued to experiment. I agree the option would be nice instead of making it permanent one way or the other. I would really like to have that option. I've been trying to pretend the bike computer is doing it for me (when in reality I'm being the computer) and I think it would work well and be safer for the newbie and safer for the neighbor's cat.

About cadence vs torque, I made a trip to the store to test ride a Pace 500.3 (torque sensor) again, because the first time over a month ago I only rode it for a couple of minutes. It's unexpected but I kind of prefer the cadence sensor on the 500.2 more. Let me explain.... A really well implemented torque sensor system hands down I would certainly prefer. Especially when the bike also has a throttle like you mentioned, in which case there should be no downside to the torque sensor. But it seems like the torque sensor + motor controller on the 500.3 isn't very refined yet. That superman feeling people report with torque sensor bikes, yes that is there on the 500.3 which is nice. But as you pedal the feedback / pressure at our feet and legs feels kind of quirky and unnatural. Granted, it's even more quirky on the 500.2 cadence bike, but at least when I am pedaling with some pressure on the 500.2 the sensation at my feet is smooth just like a high quality regular bike. With 500.3 I'll agree it is more natural in the sense that you don't get that weird motor has a mind of its own and controller lag that you get with the 500.2

With the cadence sensor it is more like having two systems working loosely in conjunction and my brain is used to it now and I'm adjusting the PAS levels without even thinking about it. And I get that buttery smooth pressure at my feet when I pedal.

Probably if I had the chance to ride the 500.3 for a longer period of time, I'd get used to it and completely forget the feeling at the pedal. I'm looking at our garage, thinking about where we would park a second e-bike if we get another one . I'm tired of wanting to ride, only to find someone else in the family already has it out. And heaven forbid I ride a regular bike again. Geesh, I write long repetitive posts / thanks if you've made it to the end. .

 

[Hoggdoc]

This is where the application of the throttle works for me. If I come to a stop and need to take off again I twist the throttle a bit to get moving before I start pedaling. If I just start pedaling without the throttle, I am not as balanced as I am with just twisting the throttle for 1 or 2 seconds. I regard the throttle as kind of a safety feature.

100% the way e bikes without torque sensing should be ridden IMHO. By using the bikes gearing and PAS modes in combination you can maintain your cruising speed and pedal effort very well. In my case I have adjusted the PAS levels to give me 9 choices, each level increases or decreases the level of motor power by 20%. I find this works perfectly for me.

I understand many e bikes don't give you the flexibility to make these changes and I find that inexcusable. Just my two cents on this idea.

 

[ecrawler]

100% the way e bikes without torque sensing should be ridden IMHO. By using the bikes gearing and PAS modes in combination you can maintain your cruising speed and pedal effort very well. In my case I have adjusted the PAS levels to give me 9 choices, each level increases or decreases the level of motor power by 20%. I find this works perfectly for me.

I understand many e bikes don't give you the flexibility to make these changes and I find that inexcusable. Just my two cents on this idea.

I wish Aventon allowed some control. I agree it's inexcusable. The one adjustment they do give on cadence bikes is, if you increase (or decrease) the top pedal assist speed, then it sort of proportionally increases (or decreases) the top speed of all of the PAS levels accordingly. The Pace 500.2 comes with 5 PAS levels.

 

[m@Robertson]

I wouldn't want the kind of automatic - lets call it 'enforced' - power step-down posited here. If I want less assist power, I will tick down the assist setting. I don't need or want an algorithm ignorant of my gearing and terrain deciding for me whether I need less assist. Especially since the parameters described for a reduction also perfectly describe what happens when you hit a steep hill. An automatic reduction in power would be the last thing a rider needs.

An automatic increase, on the other hand, exists already and works splendidly.

KT controllers for hub motors use cadence sensing and what their marketing people call "simulated torque assist" which a) is a ridiculous name for it and b) is very different from what most people think is cadence-based assist. It gives a high power output when speed and crankarm revolutions are slow, and scales back power when speed and crank revolutions are high. So if you are starting from a dead stop, you'll see maybe 1000w of output on your display initially (25a controller and 52v battery), and it will slowly scale back as you get up and going, to maybe as little as 50w when you get up to cruising speed and are pedaling merrily away at 70 rpms.

When you hit a hill, and you start to slow down (both ground speed and and crankarm rpms), you will see the power output ramp up accordingly to help you get up the hill. If you upshift to increase crankarm rpms, you'll see the assist level jump down... so its aware of the speed of pedal rotation (worth noting: you can safely shift under power on a hill because its a hub motor not a mid drive).

Its nothing like the on/off switch you hear people cry about when they are dissing cadence based assist in favor of the torque-based version.

 

[jimthecanoeist]

I think this idea would be much better and safer for cadence based ebikes than what is implemented today. As you slow down the PAS level should automatically drop down, in incremental steps, with a lower limit of Level 1. What I mean by lower limit is, if you slow down and come to a complete stop, the automatic feature would take PAS as far down as Level 1. If the rider wants Level 0 they would need to do that manually..

I played around with this idea today on the Aventon Pace 500.2, trying to pretend like a controller was doing the PAS step downs. I think it works great, even on hills.

Say you're moving along at a PAS level of 5 and slow way down or nearly stop, and PAS automatically ratchets its way down to level 1, and then you want to speed back up again. It's a simple matter of bumping up the PAS levels again with your thumb. That is well controlled and way safer than how it is now. The way it is today, if you're moving along at PAS 4 or 5 and either need to slow down unexpectedly, or you're coming up to a curb or whatever and you slow way down. When you start to pedal again you're taking off and it can be kind of crazy, especially if you've moved onto a sidewalk or into a tight space. That can all be avoided if PAS had already stepped its way down incrementally as you slowed down.

I wish Aventon would give the user access to some controls, so this feature could be tested. For a moment I was thinking maybe it could be a setting that the user could choose, but maybe that's not such a good idea if a person forgets what mode they're in. So just keep the feature turned on.

I would never suggest the opposite however, where the PAS level would automatically increase as you speed up.

Such a feature would need to be a configuration option. I want my peddle assist to do what I select it to do. Like dropping into a depression, coasting with brakes. I want my selected peddle assist to kick in as I burst up the other side. Part of the fun with my Himiway Cruiser is manipulating the various controls to best negotiate the terrain.

 

[LightningP38]

This is where the application of the throttle works for me. If I come to a stop and need to take off again I twist the throttle a bit to get moving before I start pedaling. If I just start pedaling without the throttle, I am not as balanced as I am with just twisting the throttle for 1 or 2 seconds. I regard the throttle as kind of a safety feature.

I do the same. Plus I can pulse the throttle on and off to modulate my speed.
Also, I run at pas 2 on the rail trail. Can’t go much faster on the trails.
I don’t get into pas 4 or 5 unless I am riding on a road.

 

[arthurdent18610]

I do the same. Plus I can pulse the throttle on and off to modulate my speed.
Also, I run at pas 2 on the rail trail. Can’t go much faster on the trails.
I don’t get into pas 4 or 5 unless I am riding on a road.

I've two ebikes one I built using a 250/1000w rear hub & a lankeleisi mg740 that has two 1000w hubs. The one I built uses a kit I bought in 2016 so it comes with a fully operational throttle & is legal due to its age in the uk. The throttle works in the 0 PAS & in the 1000w setting assists me upto 24mph. You can limit the top speed to 15.5mph but it doesn't effect the throttle. The lankeleisi you can disable the throttle & it only works if your using PAS. The self build is a handful, the cadence sensor kicks in with the slightest turn of the pedals, so the throttle is a life saver when starting off or manoeuvring through those cycle path barriers. The lankeleisi cadence sensor kicks in after a second or two & the take off can be limited through the display, being a fat bike 26 x 4 tyres, I find the throttle very useful in getting this heavy fat bike moving. I've read that the UK government is looking into raising the speed & power of ebikes, from 250 to 500w & 15.5mph to 20, this would put ebikes inline with all the 20mph zones springing up all over the uk & aid in road safety. I've also heard that the UK government is looking into legalising privatelyowned escooters for the road.

 

[1Tuna]

100% the way e bikes without torque sensing should be ridden IMHO. By using the bikes gearing and PAS modes in combination you can maintain your cruising speed and pedal effort very well. In my case I have adjusted the PAS levels to give me 9 choices, each level increases or decreases the level of motor power by 20%. I find this works perfectly for me.

I understand many e bikes don't give you the flexibility to make these changes and I find that inexcusable. Just my two cents on this idea.

Is there a site that provides 5 or 9-step PAS recipes that may fit most casual bikeway riders (15-18mph) at least for us fish?

 

[HumanPerson]

Is there a site that provides 5 or 9-step PAS recipes that may fit most casual bikeway riders (15-18mph) at least for us fish?

Tales On Two Wheels

This cyclist-written site is dedicated to do-it-yourself ebike builds, ideas and experiences, focusing on attention to detail and quality cycling components.

talesontwowheels.com

BBSHD Performance Settings (slightly refined)

In BBSHD Programming for the Pedaling Cyclist, I laid out what my preferred settings were for my ebikes. I have settled upon them after a fair bit of tinkering over time. Since that was published, …

talesontwowheels.com

Depending on your controller and or display.....

 

[1Tuna]

Tales On Two Wheels

This cyclist-written site is dedicated to do-it-yourself ebike builds, ideas and experiences, focusing on attention to detail and quality cycling components.

talesontwowheels.com

BBSHD Performance Settings (slightly refined)

In BBSHD Programming for the Pedaling Cyclist, I laid out what my preferred settings were for my ebikes. I have settled upon them after a fair bit of tinkering over time. Since that was published, …

talesontwowheels.com

Depending on your controller and or display.....

Thanks for the quick reply. I do avid research and basically fill a mini-library if I take on DIY that I'm unfamiliar with. Your links and info will be added. I do like to try to do things once, but know some changes may make sense later.

 

[HumanPerson]

Thanks for the quick reply. I do avid research and basically fill a mini-library if I take on DIY that I'm unfamiliar with. Your links and info will be added. I do like to try to do things once, but know some changes may make sense later.

You're very welcome

 

[1Tuna]

My 1st build is using a Wally World Ozark Trail Ridge 29" w/Bafang BBS02(B) and 48V-20aH battery. Plan to do some decal customizing and dressing to make it "Tuna ready". I'll be riding asphalt ribbon and crushed ag-lime trails. Once I get the build completed I'll post some shots. I like taking photos of the process in case my kids want to build one or if I just need reference as I age.

 

[HumanPerson]

might wanna get another battery and or a battery blender..BUT.... get a good battery blender and they are not cheap..


That way you won't get range anxiety.

 

[HumanPerson]

Amazon.com