Best Brand Of Fat Tires?

[m@Robertson]

For some reason, I can't find them on the main Schwalbe website but they're readily available in UK (about $50 each). https://welltuned.co.kr/goods/goods_view.php?goodsNo=1000000939

Its there but you have to know to look down at the product grid under the product options. I know of another Schwalbe tire option hidden like that (the 20x2.60 Pickup) so I looked and sure enough there it was. You can buy direct from Schwalbe via that link. The site you linked is written in Korean which is not particularly reassuring.

Super Moto-X | Performance | Black-Reflex | Addix | 11159604

WIDE, COMFORTABLE, SAFE! Whether travelling on asphalt or trail, the beefy Super Moto-X offers the best riding characteristics and plenty of comfort. The extra-resilient DoubleDefense construction lets you reach your destination safely, even in the tough…

www.schwalbetires.com

Very surprised at this as Schwalbe has always been resistant to fat tires. I don't think they have any more like this other than their established singletrack fat tires that have been around for quite awhile..

Don't take the Super Moto X's flat protection for granted. My worst blowout ever was using one of them. Something I never saw (not glass) slit a 3/4" hole in the center of the tread. Ordinarily I prefer the Marathon Plus but thats not going to help you.

 

[HoppyUK]

Thing is, on the Schwalbe.com website (accessed from UK) the new 20in sizes are not listed on the Super Moto-X page, and they don't come up on a search but I have found the listing now. From what you also say, the website needs attention and since it is down for maintenance here as I write maybe that's happening?! As an aside, I have found the same problem with quite a few manufacturer's websites (eg Magura, among others). If you want to find out about the latest products, don't look there!

I chose the Korean link as it was the only subsidiary Schwalbe site I could find that illustrated the new 20x4in tyre in all its colour versions. There are actually three new sizes of the Super Moto-X - 20x4, 20x2.8 and 20x2.4. I agree that the built-in puncture protection may not be 100% dependable

 

[m@Robertson]

Interesting. on The North America page I do see the 20x2.80, which would be perfect for the Bullitt cargo bike I have, except I can't use smooth tread thanks to sand drifts we get here. I just recently tried a 20x3.0 which is well beyond what anyone else in the Bullitt community has tried and it worked, except I could not inflate to full pressure so it could fit. Which caused an unacceptable loss of carry capacity. A smooth-tread 20x2.8 would probably work great.

Schwalbe has had *years* to go bigger on their tires and all of a sudden they are doing it on multiple models. They must have decided the money left on the table was finally worth picking up.

 

[HoppyUK]

I've been looking for something like the Super Moto-X for a while and must've checked Schwalbe.com (from UK) several times without finding anything wide enough in 20in - yet I think they've been available for maybe six months now. Why the secrecy?! Did they bother to send out a press release? No mentions that I've noticed on ebike forums either. Perhaps I should pay more attention.

It's interesting that they seem to have eschewed the fat tyre market. I would have thought that tyre manufacturers had the easiest job when deciding what to make - just look at the bikes that are selling. And if they're reading any forums, they'd know what a total PITA punctures are, to which fat tyres are obviously more prone. On my RadRunner-Plus, I'm running Slime, plus Tannus Armour, plus Mr Tuffy. This is bordering on the ridiculous but for the last 1000m or so it's finally kept the hawthorns at bay (UK equivalent of goatheads).

There is surely a lucrative opportunity here. Maybe it's tubeless, but I'm not seeing much progress on that front either with fat tyres.

 

[hugh]

For my fattie I have summer and winter tires. In winter the fat bike is usually trucked to a trail and seldom ridden in town. Winter tires are 45 North Flowbiest in front and Dunderbiest in rear, both 26 by 4.8" usually with around 8 psi. They both remind me of the knobby tire I used to run on my enduro bikes many years ago.
Summer time I run 26 by 4" Fat be Nimble plus I have a couple generic Chaosang type tires. Pressure on those max is around 30 psi but I run a bit under 20. It smooths the ride and may increase tire wear but I don't care and the increased pedal effort, well thats what the motor is for.

 

[hugh]

This is the bike I use for my admittedly rare city rides. It's got a BBSO2 motor, was a scrap bike I picked up along with 15 others for parts but I figured it could be cleaned up. It runs 26 by 2.1" Schwalbe ice spikers and got some plastic fenders mounted on it to slow down the sand and salt effects. The rear wheel was shot so i had another that used disc brakes so the rear was converted to a disc.
Oh and the picture above is my fatbike on my favorite trail in a nearby provincial park. It was taken a few years ago, it now has a rack mounted battery, the yellow pannier is no longer used but the trail still gets run every Wed with a couple retired friends.

 

[m@Robertson]

There is surely a lucrative opportunity here. Maybe it's tubeless, but I'm not seeing much progress on that front either with fat tyres.

I have been running tubeless fatties for years on my Surly Big Fat Dummy. Vee tires are tubeless ready, as are Maxxis Minion FBR's and FBF's. There are more. The real rub is tubeless *rims*. Everyone points to going ghetto tubeless with the right tape, but that tape will not seal up the rim walls around the edges, which will happily leak air, sealant and air+sealant. I use carbon fiber deep dish rims (Nextie Wild Dragon II 90mm) and you need a rim like that to pull it off. You can try adaptation products like Fattystrippers (no I did not make that name up) but in my experience with them, they suck (thats the very short version).

The thing is, tubeless is far better suited to pinhole problems like thorns and ill-suited to urban problems like strips of steel, broken bottle necks, bolts and similar.

 

[HoppyUK]

I have been running tubeless fatties for years on my Surly Big Fat Dummy. Vee tires are tubeless ready, as are Maxxis Minion FBR's and FBF's. There are more. The real rub is tubeless *rims*. Everyone points to going ghetto tubeless with the right tape, but that tape will not seal up the rim walls around the edges, which will happily leak air, sealant and air+sealant. I use carbon fiber deep dish rims (Nextie Wild Dragon II 90mm) and you need a rim like that to pull it off. You can try adaptation products like Fattystrippers (no I did not make that name up) but in my experience with them, they suck (thats the very short version).

The thing is, tubeless is far better suited to pinhole problems like thorns and ill-suited to urban problems like strips of steel, broken bottle necks, bolts and similar.

It's good to hear from someone who actually knows what they're talking about on the subject of fat tyre tubeless and even has real experience! So thank you for that. I've not been able to gather reliable information from the chatter on other forums, other than one suggestion that modern wheels now run the same rim profile for both tubed and tubeless. Then a bike shop guy said that wasn't true and I'm not inclined to believe either of them now. Not with real money. Then for me, the nail in this particular coffin came from a very knowledgeable guy who simply said 'not worth the effort'. He's a man of few words but always hits the mark so that's where I left it.

I'm aware of Vee Tires though not the Maxxis, but the fact that they've obviously not caught on is telling. And your point about the different types of punctures is very valid. I've had both in recent years. Aside from the contact patch itself, the soft sidewalls of fat tires are thin and vulnerable. So I was forced to conclude that the easiest and safest course of action for me was to treble-down on extra protection, ie Slime plus Tannus plus Mr Tuffy. In principle, I hate doing that but I hate flats even more. Thanks again for your input

 

[m@Robertson]

I'm aware of Vee Tires though not the Maxxis, but the fact that they've obviously not caught on is telling. And your point about the different types of punctures is very valid. I've had both in recent years. Aside from the contact patch itself, the soft sidewalls of fat tires are thin and vulnerable.

Well, the tires have certainly caught on as they are in very (very) wide use, but that is for fat bikes, not fat ebikes. Big difference in the kind of bike and rider. Thing is, fat ebike riders tend to be sort of a beginner class of cyclist: They're not riding quality bikes in terms of cycling components and frames, and being beginners they tend to not appreciate (or need) what they are missing. The fat ebike came first from Sondors, a disruptive, bargain ebike manufacturer who broke ground doing it... for marketing and style reasons, not for efficacy. All that stuff about stability at speed came later when everyone - myself included - were looking for reasons to justify riding a wilderness bike on pavement.

Tubeless is dirt-simple so long as you use the right parts - a proper welded rim, or a carbon fiber one. A total of zero Chinese ebike rims fit the quality standards necessary to let them do this kind of duty.

Just last month I replaced one set of tubeless fat tires that I wore clean out for another, and all I had to do is pull the tires off the rims, put the new ones on, leave a segment of tire off the bead, pour in a half-bottle of Flatout, seat the bead and inflate with a small air compressor. Job done. Now, when I tried doing that with pinned alloy Weinmann rims, then after watching those leak went with Fattystrippers, that worked (mostly), I could say that tubeless is a pain. But I was using the wrong tools for the job. Nobody wants to be the one to blame for bad decisions and resulting failure, so many point their finger at the equipment.

Fresh 5.05" Late Nov 2023 tubeless:

Tubed 2wd commuter in 2018:

Same bike in 2019. Fattystrippers let the Weinmann rims handle tubeless Vee Snowshoes. For a little while anyway. Definitely a giant PITA and nothing like the one done right at top.

Usually I am on the side of saying tubeless is not the be-all and end-all, by the way, and tubed wheelsets very much have their place. Especially on urban-use bikes. My daily drivers are all tubed. Just a week or so ago I got my first failure in maybe two years. A tube failed when the stem tore clean off (my fault I upsized the tire and didn't upsize the tube). At the curb I had the wheel off, spare tube on, reinflated, wheel back on and continued my errand within 20 minutes. I use the thickest tubes I can, I use oversized tubes (so the tube is not distended) and I use uber-sealant inside. Where possible I also use Tannus, but that product is iffy at best. So unfortunately is Tuffy on larger diameter tires. ESPECIALLY fat tires where it seldom lays evenly over the tread area, and is made with a lightweight construction that lets every nail thru that you'll run over.

Rely on something like FlatOut that seals up to a 1/2" hole, and an oversized tube that doesn't go boom when it is punctured. Vee makes tubes in 5.05" sizes that also have thicker walls. Kenda tubes are pretty thick, too. But oversizing the tubes is a big help. Think of what happens if you blow up a balloon and graze it with a pin. Then take another balloon and only put a puff of air into it. You can poke the hell out of it for fairly obvious reasons.

So I was forced to conclude that the easiest and safest course of action for me was to treble-down on extra protection, ie Slime plus Tannus plus Mr Tuffy. In principle, I hate doing that but I hate flats even more. Thanks again for your input

If it makes you feel any better, I do the same thing, although I don't do Tuffy because it is unreliable in its XL fat tire formulations. Came to that conclusion after a few thousand miles of fat bike commuting at speed on the orange 2wd bike, and its predecessor which had the same drivetrain, so 28 mph street use in all weather.

 

[munirider]

Interesting, I was wondering about tubeless tires and how difficult or easy they are to deal with. The Growler fat tire bike we have has tubeless on both sets of wheels. The front 26" snow tire has a slow leak, I need to put air in the tire every other day. I'm wondering if I should just put some more sealant in the tire.
The ice cream truck has what the guy described as split tube tubeless there is a Schrader stem tube that was split all the way down the middle then spread out over the rim, the tire is mounted onto the tube and the extra tube sticking out is trimmed off, I assume that sealant is also used. They hold air so I guess it works, This would probably also work to make other unsuitable rims tubeless.

 

[HoppyUK]

"If it makes you feel any better, I do the same thing..."

Yes, it does make me feel better! I guess I'm frustrated that in modern times with countless millions of bikes rolling around the globe, we have yet to come up with an efficient and reliable answer to the terminal prick of a tiny thorn. Nature 1, technology nil. But if it takes a triple-down on puncture-resistant accessory products, I'll take that and swallow my offended principles.

I'll also add that I carry a full repair kit, just in case, but it would have to be an absolutely last resort that I actually used it. And I guess I'm fortunate in that I know how to do that whereas it's clear from ebike forums that a lot of folks simply don't have the kit, or the knowledge, or quite possibly the physical strength anymore. How many of those unfortunates, after an unlucky few flats, simply give up on bikes?

Anyway, all that aside - thank you so much for your posts. I've learned more in the last few minutes, with invaluable authoritative and factual information, than in the last few years of casual forum surfing. However, after a quick google, I'll leave the carbon wheels for now thanks

Best regards, Richard

 

[addertooth]

I don't want to jinx myself, but after getting two flats in a single month, I switched to a thicker carcass tire and the sealant "flat out". I have had zero flats in the two months since. I live in the land of the endless Goathead, Arizona.

 

[m@Robertson]

Interesting, I was wondering about tubeless tires and how difficult or easy they are to deal with.

Its easy if you have the right gear. If you don't its just not going to work right.

I'm wondering if I should just put some more sealant in the tire.

Yes! Sealants dry out. Some at shockingly fast intervals (as little as two months). Stans forms what are called "Stans boogers" (google it) and Orange Seal makes a thin flexible film over the tire casing inside. Flatout is the exception and officially at least does not dry out in less than 10 years. The Flatout I had in the blue bike's tires pictured above was something like three years old and while it was not dry, it was the consistency of warm jell-o. Still enough to provide a goo over the inside tire carcass but definitely degraded... BUT it was still going.

The ice cream truck has what the guy described as split tube tubeless there is a Schrader stem tube that was split all the way down the middle then spread out over the rim, the tire is mounted onto the tube and the extra tube sticking out is trimmed off,

That is essentially a DIY version of the Fattystripper product, and one I think I would trust more. The problem with Fattystripper is its so thin it is subject to breakage, and you have to replace it with new if you ever take the tire off (so side of the road repairs will be iffy). But mostly the super thin stuff is just more fragile than is acceptable for a bike you have to depend on. A tube as you describe would be plenty strong... if you felt like putting that amount of effort into the process. I guess if the alternative is buying a proper tubeless compatible wheelset its a pretty darn good idea.

 

[m@Robertson]

Yes, it does make me feel better! I guess I'm frustrated that in modern times with countless millions of bikes rolling around the globe, we have yet to come up with an efficient and reliable answer to the terminal prick of a tiny thorn. Nature 1, technology nil. But if it takes a triple-down on puncture-resistant accessory products, I'll take that and swallow my offended principles.

Flatout will solve the goathead problem completely. So will Slime for that matter although its a v1.0 sort of sealant. Slime will turn a puncture into a very VERY slow leak requiring a tire refill every few days (assuming you don't hit it with 100 goatheads, which I have done on a tire with a thorn-resistant tube and rode home successfully). Flatout on the other hand will - once you remove the goathead - seal the tube and then dry to a hard nub. Its a permanent fix. Where you need multiple layers of protection is when you hit something like a shard of steel.

I'll also add that I carry a full repair kit, just in case, but it would have to be an absolutely last resort that I actually used it. And I guess I'm fortunate in that I know how to do that whereas it's clear from ebike forums that a lot of folks simply don't have the kit, or the knowledge, or quite possibly the physical strength anymore. How many of those unfortunates, after an unlucky few flats, simply give up on bikes?

People love to blame the equipment. Not only do I carry a repair kit, I use the tools in it to perform in-home repairs and do work in my garage... not just roadside. That way, when I am roadside I am not handicapped trying to make do with a half-assed tool. I'm using my regular tools. Roadside repair doesn't require much so its not like I am carrying around pipe wrenches.

(e)Bike Tool Kit – The 2022 Edition

In the last few months, I’ve made a few changes to my standard on-bike tool kits. Lets take a look.

talesontwowheels.com

What has changed in that kit since 2022 is I have reverted back to the ebike-battery-powered mini compressor and set aside the battery-powered ones I list in the link. Keeping a pump with its own battery in your kit is fine for a few months or so but truly long term it is not survivable, for reasons everyone knows already. li-nmc batteries don't survive over the long term when kept at a high state of charge, right? Well that applies to your pump battery too. I fortunately found this out using the pump at home and not roadside.

That catastrophic flat I mentioned earlier used one of these to refill the tire and it could not have been simpler or more stress-free.

A Lightweight Electric Emergency Bike Pump

Got an ebike? Use the big battery you are already lugging around to power a small portable pump.

talesontwowheels.com

Anyway, all that aside - thank you so much for your posts. I've learned more in the last few minutes, with invaluable authoritative and factual information, than in the last few years of casual forum surfing.

Happy to do it. That is in fact why I brancked off and did a web site... so I could do deep dives on specific topics ONCE and then just link to them instead of writing the story halfway over and over again as repeat topics come up.

However, after a quick google, I'll leave the carbon wheels for now thanks

Hah yeah I'll bet. For what its worth, those Nextie wheels I use were bought when Nextie was a relatively early product launch and they were WAY cheaper than they are now. In fact, I had a 36H set of the deep dish rims that I ended up not using and sold on for what I paid for them. Boy do I wish I had kept them as retail is more than double that now.

 

[munirider]

Its easy if you have the right gear. If you don't its just not going to work right.

Yes! Sealants dry out. Some at shockingly fast intervals (as little as two months). Stans forms what are called "Stans boogers" (google it) and Orange Seal makes a thin flexible film over the tire casing inside. Flatout is the exception and officially at least does not dry out in less than 10 years. The Flatout I had in the blue bike's tires pictured above was something like three years old and while it was not dry, it was the consistency of warm jell-o. Still enough to provide a goo over the inside tire carcass but definitely degraded... BUT it was still going.

That is essentially a DIY version of the Fattystripper product, and one I think I would trust more. The problem with Fattystripper is its so thin it is subject to breakage, and you have to replace it with new if you ever take the tire off (so side of the road repairs will be iffy). But mostly the super thin stuff is just more fragile than is acceptable for a bike you have to depend on. A tube as you describe would be plenty strong... if you felt like putting that amount of effort into the process. I guess if the alternative is buying a proper tubeless compatible wheelset its a pretty darn good idea.

I was going to ask what is your favorite tire sealant but it sounds like it is Flat out, other question is how do you put in a presta valve stem? or do you have to break the tires bead and just dump it into the tire?

Looks like I need a kit like this https://www.amazon.com/Flying-Tiger...7d&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9odWNfbXJhaQ&th=1

Or do you have a better recommendation?

I just read through your tool kit article, I am also a fan of Knipex tools I have a Raptor 87 14 250. all of their tools are really high quality and innovative designs.
https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-87-41...28&sprefix=knipex+raptor+,aps,187&sr=8-1&th=1

I want one of those parallels jaw plyers like you have or several, I'm also a serious tool junkie.

 

[addertooth]

I was going to ask what is your favorite tire sealant but it sounds like it is Flat out, other question is how do you put in a presta valve stem? or do you have to break the tires bead and dump it into the tire?

For a Tubed bike:
My flat out came with a clear flex tube. You unscrew the valve from the stem. Then you rotate the tire to where the stem is horizontal. Next you slide the clear tube over the valve stem. You squeeze the correct amount of flat out into the tube. Take a Q-Tip and swab out the inside of the valve stem. Screw the valve stem back in. Inflate the tire. Spin the tire to distribute the flat out, or, ride the bike.

For a tubeless bike:
Deflate the tire. Break the bead of the tire with the rim. Squeeze in the correct amount of flat out into the gap between the rim and the tire. Reset the bead and inflate the tire. Spin the tire, or, ride the bike.

 

[m@Robertson]

Well, many presta valves (and all of them that are uised with tubeless setups) have removable valve cores. So you have a nice big hole to glop the Flatout in thru. What I do is put a Schraeder-to-Presta adapter onto the end of the flatout hose and then just press it to the core-removed presta valve. Then squeeze until done. This is the way you'd do it with all presta tubed tires, unless you are using a tube without a removable core.

If that is the case (and I did it this way until I ran out of presta tubes with fixed cores) you go and get a meat marinade injector. Poke a hole in the tube (yes, really), put the needle onto the injector and inject the sealant. When done either patch the hole you just made with a proper Rema-style cold-vulcanizing patch, or just inflate and let Flatout do a permanent seal. I personally always patched but I know plenty of people who just let the sealant do its job.

The great big 5.05" XL2's I just put on were too big to go thru that process though. For a 5.05" tire I decided to exceed the 1/2 bottle recommended dose (I've talked to Flatout directly and that dose varies by internal tire dimensions; and a 5.05" tire has a LOT more surface area than even a 4.5") to about 2/3 of a bottle. I had a firm enough seal on one side of the rim, and enough open tire, to take that pool of glop without risking spillage too much. So I did it the way @addertooth described it above for the first time.

Or do you have a better recommendation?

For injecting Flatout into removable core presta valves, tubeless and tubed, I have always used this one

https://amzn.to/3S7s4Se

I've got some bikes where the tubeless fit is so tight and fiddly I really don't want to be taking any chances with an unseated bead

 

[m@Robertson]

I'm also a serious tool junkie.

Then go to Amazon and check out the "Wera Joker wrench". I'd give a link but my desktop is getting twitchy and I can't do any cut/paste. Hopefully just need a reboot.

I use Wera torque wrenches, ratchets and hex keys and kind of have had to stop myself from blowing money on a couple of these Jokers as the cost adds up quick. I have so few nut/bolt needs the Knipex' do the jobs I need all the way up to a hub motor axle bolt so I don't need to go there.

 

[HoppyUK]

Everybody loves Knipex, don't they? But not so impressed with Wera - nothing special IMHO but at pretty special prices. Their ratchet mechs are average at best. I still have some Wera in my go-to toolbox but I've swapped out those daft 'Joker' wrenches.

To be honest, I can do the lion's share of work on my RadRunner-Plus with just a couple of nice Beta hex wrenches, and they're 30 years old.

 

[m@Robertson]

I like the Wera hex keys that have the concave shape as they do tend to grab on better. Also the ones with the retention bearing inside the ball end have come in handy But the price of a set means I have just one and can't put them in my bike toolkits.... although my Bullitt kit has a lower-end set that has no little bearings on the end, or fancy colored sleeves. Generally I stick to Bondhus herx wrenches... hard tool steel that lasts, and cheap.

Also the Wera torque wrenches have been the best I've owned. A Park torque wrench is right there in price, is less accurate and has no re-calibration service. I have killed torque wrenches after prolonged use and so far after I think 4 years my two Weras are still working well.

Glad to hear some experience on the Jokers. Too much money for a wrench, anyway.

As long as we are fawning over tools. One word: Mitutoyo.