did anyone even say they instruct their kids TODAY to ride on the wrong sides of the road? and what you say is the law is NOT always the case in every single state. for instance, in ny state even the written published laws and suggested guild lines for safe bike riding and ebikes. or other motorized things have different rules. some of which are laws. and some are just guild lines which is not the same as LAW. laws are mandates guild lines and suggestions are more like optional suggestions. such as its the LAW that children under 16 have to wear helmets even when riding a pedal bike and its also suggested they were other safety gear but not required by law. same as adults its not the law to were helmets in ny state but is suggested. also even on ny state dmv publications for biking laws and safety, it suggests and even is an exemption in the law that young children not only should ride on the sidewalks rather than out on the road it's also legal for a young or small child to ride a bike or tricycle on the sidewalks tho the one thing that's not clear is they don't really specify at what age or size defines what a "very young" or "small child" is. tho laws also change all the time and even i was not aware of a few things that are now the LAW in ny state till i went to look up something last week and see that stuff that now the law was not mandated by law only a few years go for regular non-pedal bikes. such as headlights not being required in the entire state for riding after dark is something that at one time was just a safety suggestion or tip 20 years ago. which im in compliance with on my ebike. but i was not aware that just recently they also started requiring rear tail lite a even on pedal bikes when riding after dark and that's actually a really new update in the law, before you only had to have a rear reflector. which is something i had wanted to get for my ebike any way but now that i seen they are legally required I ordered one that's also got turn signals and brake lite on it and a horn being I don't think the stock bell that is on my bike is all that great and the state law says even a bell or horn has to be audible from at least 100 feet away. and the existing 1 is not even easy to hear when next to it if there is traffic or if someone got earbuds in.
Kids and ebikes
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did anyone even say they instruct their kids TODAY to ride on the wrong sides of the road? and what you say is the law is NOT always the case in every single state. for instance, in ny state even the written published laws and suggested guild lines for safe bike riding and ebikes. or other motorized things have different rules. some of which are laws. and some are just guild lines which is not the same as LAW. laws are mandates guild lines and suggestions are more like optional suggestions. such as its the LAW that children under 16 have to wear helmets even when riding a pedal bike and its also suggested they were other safety gear but not required by law. same as adults its not the law to were helmets in ny state but is suggested. also even on ny state dmv publications for biking laws and safety, it suggests and even is an exemption in the law that young children not only should ride on the sidewalks rather than out on the road it's also legal for a young or small child to ride a bike or tricycle on the sidewalks tho the one thing that's not clear is they don't really specify at what age or size defines what a "very young" or "small child" is. tho laws also change all the time and even i was not aware of a few things that are now the LAW in ny state till i went to look up something last week and see that stuff that now the law was not mandated by law only a few years go for regular non-pedal bikes. such as headlights not being required in the entire state for riding after dark is something that at one time was just a safety suggestion or tip 20 years ago. which im in compliance with on my ebike. but i was not aware that just recently they also started requiring rear tail lite a even on pedal bikes when riding after dark and that's actually a really new update in the law, before you only had to have a rear reflector. which is something i had wanted to get for my ebike any way but now that i seen they are legally required I ordered one that's also got turn signals and brake lite on it and a horn being I don't think the stock bell that is on my bike is all that great and the state law says even a bell or horn has to be audible from at least 100 feet away. and the existing 1 is not even easy to hear when next to it if there is traffic or if someone got earbuds in.
Django
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It was actually you that brought up the subject of riding against traffic, (you declared the law to be “whacky” and “downright dangerous”): “one thing they have as far as even the bike laws that's really whacky and even downright dangerous is today they say all bikes have to ride with traffic and on the same side of the road. even tho when I was a kid at was always advised if biking or walking along a busy road to go on the opposite side so you have visibility of oncoming traffic and don't get run over by cars coming from behind you”.
And here you continue to advocate and defend riding on the wrong side of the road, which may make you feel safer while endangering others: “heck there are even a few roads i travel on that i would still much rather pay a small fine if it was illegal to ride on the side of the road that has the wider shoulder and or higher visibility one road in particular that has about a 5 mile stretch were a few parts go around blind turns and have a really wide 4 foot shoulder on one side of the road and grass and nothing to get hurt on if i had to swerve off the shoulder but has less then a few inches if shoulder on the other side of the road and in many places steep drop-offs were you would go down an embankment or into a ditch if you had to suddenly serve to avoid something. id still rather risk the small fine to ride on whatever part of the road happened to be the safest. and the one road I'm even thinking of I ride on the same side most of the way no matter what direction I'm going.. so when I'm going away from my house most of the ride I'm going with the traffic but the return trip most of the way on that road I have to ride on the same side i came which make me have to ride against the traffic. as well as 2 of the 3 bridges on that route 2 of them only have one side that's got a shoulder. or pedestrian crossing on just one side of the bridge”
We also heard from @ETrike, where he in his convoluted way was defending it as proper parenting.
The facts are that it is a federal law, not state law that requires bicycles to obey all traffic laws, including riding with traffic. Riding against traffic creates a hazard for other cyclists, drivers and pedestrians, (you talk about wanting to see what is coming, but since pedestrians face traffic, you will be coming up behind them).
So in the end, you choose to endanger everyone else for your perceived safety. I have first hand experience with people doing what you feel is safe and I can tell you from experience, they are creating a hazard. Your comment really struck a nerve because I have experienced how much that behavior endangers others.
Just picture a cyclist riding along a winding two lane with minimal shoulders and they encounter a bicycle on your, (wrong), side of the road. The reaction time will be greatly reduced because instead of a closing speed of your speed minus theirs, the closing speed is now the combined speed, (and of course the speed of the impending collision is increased by the same proportions). The ”accident” will be completely the fault of the rider that is breaking the law and they will be liable. They will most likely have caused injury or even death to someone that was doing nothing wrong. You may even cause them to swerve out into traffic to get hit by another vehicle in their attempt to avoid you, so my knee jerk reaction to someone that is riding against traffic is that they are either clueless, selfish or both.
I don’t know you and you may be neither of those things, and if that is the case, please be considerate to other cyclists, don’t confuse other drivers and don’t sneak up from behind on pedestrians. Putting others at risk for one’s “perceived” safety is a selfish act, and in this case, you actually increase the danger to yourself.
"A"
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Laws & rules are in place for everyone to follow, also to protect the majority.
If you, as an individual feel that certain law &/or rule don't apply to you and you don't need to follow that specific law &/or rule; that's entitlement.
Responsibility of being a parent doesn't change if both parents are working, paying for childcare since infant,
or have no time to spend with their kids.
Basic manners & behavior should always be taught at home, and can be re-enforced in schools.
Social skills of following rules (& laws) should always be taught at home, with reward & punishment implemented just as society participation.
It is the parents' responsibility to teach (or at least influence) their children how to fit in with school/society/world;
NOT let their children become entitled by telling them laws & rules don't apply to their children, regardless of parent's thoughts on the specific rule or law.
If you think rules & laws don't apply to you as an adult or as a parent;
run for office, change the rule & laws that would better suit the majority of population,
not just think for yourself and how the rule &/or law doesn't apply to you.
If you, as an individual feel that certain law &/or rule don't apply to you and you don't need to follow that specific law &/or rule; that's entitlement.
Responsibility of being a parent doesn't change if both parents are working, paying for childcare since infant,
or have no time to spend with their kids.
Basic manners & behavior should always be taught at home, and can be re-enforced in schools.
Social skills of following rules (& laws) should always be taught at home, with reward & punishment implemented just as society participation.
It is the parents' responsibility to teach (or at least influence) their children how to fit in with school/society/world;
NOT let their children become entitled by telling them laws & rules don't apply to their children, regardless of parent's thoughts on the specific rule or law.
If you think rules & laws don't apply to you as an adult or as a parent;
run for office, change the rule & laws that would better suit the majority of population,
not just think for yourself and how the rule &/or law doesn't apply to you.
hum not sure where you are reading that I ever advocated any such thing. and you are incorrect that ny state laws and regulations and suggested safety guild lines are federal laws they are state laws and some towns and jurisdictions also have there own laws to.
i also never said anything about children being legally allowed to ride their bikes or even walk on the wrong side of the road. i merely just pointed out that ny state law and even their own printed bike safety laws rules and suggestions even state that SMALL or VERY young children are not only just legally allowed to ride their bikes on sidewalks it is also suggested that they ride their bikes on the sidewalk rather than in the road. and some roads in the state only have one side of the road that it's safe to ride a bike on the shoulder and many of the spit lane bridges only have one side that has a pedestrian walkway or bike path. so its not even always possible to always be on the so-called proper side or the roadway depending on what direction you are traveling. There is even one bridge that crosses the Hudson River that if crossing from west to east and going in with the direction of traffic bikes and pedestrians are prohibited on that side of the bridge because at the other end it goes into a tunnel that only has about a 12 inch wide curb and cars and trucks going threw at 55mph don't have time to stop and they would end up running someone over if they were stupid enough to ignore the sign that says bikes and pedestrian traffic is prohibited and if you went that direction and caused an accident and lived you could be arrested and or ticketed. so there is only one side of the bridge that's not only safe to walk ride a bike on. there is also only one side that it's even legal to ride a bike on in the wide shoulder that's between the white line and or the pedestrian walkway. and even then one has to go slow and keep a careful lookout because not only does the bridge and walkway go up an incline where you cant see whats on the other side of the bridge coming your way it also curves on the east end of the bridge so when coming around the curve on that bridge. its really hard to see if someone is walking or riding toward you or in front of you going the same direction. and top things off the street that both sides of the bridge goes into on the east side of the river each go on to streets that are both one-way streets. and if you are going east on the only side of the bridge that's you are even legally allowed to travel or walk on in either direction you are going also have to go a few blocks on a one-way street but going the opposite direction as the cars and motorcycles are allowed to travel in and there is no way around it if someone is a pedestrian bike rider or even if in a wheelchair there is no physical way to go other then the wrong way on the 2 blocks or so that its a one-way street.
Django
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First, you called out riding with traffic as “whacky” and “dangerous”. You also said that you would prefer to be fined rather than comply. I’m not sure how those statements could be seen as anything else.
Second, the US DOT requires bicycles to ride with traffic. State laws are cannot override Federal laws, (a state can’t make laws that violate federal law). The state does not need to have a redundant law to coincide with the federal law.
JerryB
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A cop knocked on my door to tell me my dogs were chasing people on ebikes.
My dogs don’t even own ebikes…
My dogs don’t even own ebikes…
in some instances and circumstances, it is wacky and also very dangerous for anyone to be riding or even walking on the right side of the road esp if they are also IN the roadway rather than on the shoulder off of the roadway. and yes i would rather risk taking a fine to ride on whatever side of the road is less of a danger of getting killed or like I mentioned in that post if there is no shoulder on the side of the road that also has no guard rail and going off the road would mean falling down into an embankment someone would foolish and crazy there actually are some roads esp in upstate ny in the county side that you have 12 inches or less from the white line at the edge of the road and the pavement ends and you could end up going down a ravine or drainage ditch. and they don't always have guard rails either. so there are times in the REAL world were someone needs to use judgment and prudence even when walking along SOME roads.
and btw yes SOME federal laws esp ones that specify they supersede state laws do apply and take precedence over state laws and even state rights. and state and even county and town laws can even outlaw things that aren't federally outlawed or regulated. providing they don't violate any one's federal constitutional rights. which is even the reason why some roads even if state or county roads aren't allowed to block or prohibit pedestrians from traveling on. if there is no other means for someone to get from point a to point b. hench why even the congress street bridge that goes over the Hudson River allows pedestrians, bikes and even people on wheelchairs to use ONE side of the bride to cross from one town to next because for a few years when they did not have any walkway and prohibited pedestrians, bikes and wheelchair access they were in violation of federal as well as state law. because it made it impossible for people on one foot or bike to go from Watervliet ny to Troy ny without having to miles up or down the river into a whole other town and city then back to be able to cross into the town on the other side of the congress street bridge and its even why the state and the 2 citys had to spend a few million $'s to widen the bridge and to repair the pedestrian and bike pathway that's on one side of the bridge and its is also legal for them to allow people to go in either direction on the one side of the bridge that's provided for people to be able to travel on. and if someone was to use the other side of the bridge on foot, bike and in the roadway that has 55mph highway traffic and no shoulder or way for a car to even be able to swerve around someone it would not only cause a lot of accidents and pileups. and not only is it dangerous to someone and motorists its a crime to walk, ride a bike, or wheelchair in the center of a highway lane.. tho if YOU WANT to always ride in the direction of traffic even when its a safety risk to your self and to motorists as well as illegal on this one particular bridge go ahead that's your choice if you want to disregard laws as well as common sense or sound judgment.
Smaug
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Yep, sometimes (sad as it is) we must choose between following the letter of the law and protecting our lives. We only have one life!
As for my earlier comment about riding on the sidewalk, someone made the point that it is not safer for the pedestrians on the sidewalk. That's true, but if we're exercising common sense and riding at a safe speed for conditions, it's not dangerous to pedestrians either.
For example, in my city, pedestrians rarely use the sidewalks outside of the downtown area, so it's perfectly safe to go 15 mph on the sidewalks. Even in the downtown area, with pedestrians it's safe to ride on the sidewalks at 3-5 mph and just give them room. Account for phone zombies and ear bud zombies; they can't hear a classical bike bell. Honking a louder eBike horn at them would be in bad form, since we're not really supposed to be on sidewalks there. Just got to be careful and exercise common sense.
We older people still have courtesy and common sense; it's the young 'uns I worry about.
As for my earlier comment about riding on the sidewalk, someone made the point that it is not safer for the pedestrians on the sidewalk. That's true, but if we're exercising common sense and riding at a safe speed for conditions, it's not dangerous to pedestrians either.
For example, in my city, pedestrians rarely use the sidewalks outside of the downtown area, so it's perfectly safe to go 15 mph on the sidewalks. Even in the downtown area, with pedestrians it's safe to ride on the sidewalks at 3-5 mph and just give them room. Account for phone zombies and ear bud zombies; they can't hear a classical bike bell. Honking a louder eBike horn at them would be in bad form, since we're not really supposed to be on sidewalks there. Just got to be careful and exercise common sense.
We older people still have courtesy and common sense; it's the young 'uns I worry about.
Django
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To clarify, pedestrians walk facing traffic, (on the left). That was one of the reasons that I gave for not riding on the left, (a pedestrian has no reason to think a bIke would be coming up behind them). Riding on the wrong side endangers other cyclists and pedestrians as well as confusing drivers which can cause an accident. If you think that it is unsafe to ride on the correct side of the road in certain locations, then you shouldn’t ride there. That is the ethical solution. If you feel that your desire to ride there and that your safety is all that matters and you can justify endangering others for a perception of increased safety for you, then there is no argument that I can make that will make you understand. I just hope that no one suffers for your “safety”.
I hate to be harsh, but this topic, (kids and ebikes), and this side topic, (riding against traffic and being a hazard to others), really touches a nerve.
JerryB
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Speaking of walkers.......
When I was young.......my uncle was a stilt walker in a small circus.......I really looked up to him!
When I was young.......my uncle was a stilt walker in a small circus.......I really looked up to him!
You're likely not as nerved up as parents praying that their kids return home alive on a bike while not caring one bit how that happens.
Yet you are more on the brink of a breakdown as compared to anyone caring less if they break a bicycle law to stay alive in today's traffic.
If I were you I'd give a kid a break for figuring out for himself whether he wants to cut his life short given what you know to be true concerning the latter.
You may have just gotten to be the age that you are due to a lot safer streets than he or she is dealing with today.
Young 'ins might still have a little of the latter by necessarily ignoring the former in terms of staying alive on a bike.
Django
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You don’t seem to be capable of understanding that riding against traffic is more dangerous than riding with traffic. It also endangers other cyclists, (head on collision, swerving into traffic to avoid the clueless rider that is a riding testament to entitlement). If a road is too dangerous, don’t ride it!!!!You're likely not as nerved up as parents praying that their kids return home alive on a bike while not caring one bit how that happens.
Yet you are more on the brink of a breakdown as compared to anyone caring less if they break a bicycle law to stay alive in today's traffic.
If I were you I'd give a kid a break for figuring out for himself whether he wants to cut his life short given what you know to be true concerning the latter.
You may have just gotten to be the age that you are due to a lot safer streets than he or she is dealing with today.
If a parent tells their kid to ride facing traffic, they are endangering that kid as well as any cyclists that are riding correctly. They are also endangering pedestrians. How do you fail to grasp the obvious????
A kid has a much better chance of survival if they aren’t subjected to bad advice from the likes of you.
"A"
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Kids are more likely to survive if parents actually spend the time and ride with their kids in traffic, show their kids how to ride among traffic and give examples for their kids to follow; far better than just prayers that their kids survive when they are out riding on their own.
Parents that think prayers work better than showing examples for their kids to follow is just avoiding their parental responsibility to god.
What's necessary for kids to survive in public? parents that teach & show kids the right things to do.
Parents that think prayers work better than showing examples for their kids to follow is just avoiding their parental responsibility to god.
What's necessary for kids to survive in public? parents that teach & show kids the right things to do.
Smaug
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Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see where ETrike recommended riding against traffic.
************************
I'll relate a story from my life about riding against traffic.
About 8 years ago, I married a Chinese woman. (I'm American) I told her: "Always ride on the right side of the road, or on the sidewalk." (some suburbs allow it) In China, they just kind of ride everywhere, all at once. Cyclists and pedestrians don't follow traffic laws much there. So she decided to ignore me and ride on the left side instead.
A car on that side of the road was pulling out of a parking lot, waiting to turn right. He was looking left for traffic, because traffic is only supposed to be coming from that direction. When it was clear from the left, he started to move forward as he swiveled his head right and saw my ex. He knocked her right off her bike, but luckily didn't run her over. Loosened up a couple of her teeth and scraped up her face and hands.
I was almost hit on foot one time in the same manner. The car stopped right as the front bumper hit my knees. If that woman's reflexes were just a bit worse, I would have spent months in the hospital with two broken knees. Motorists often just don't look right when they're about to turn right from a stop. It's safer to WALK on the right side too, on the sidewalk!
Django
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Read back through where he quoted me and then added his rebuttal to what I said. I don’t know if the guy is just a troll or if he is just willfully ignorant. (see example below).
To further clarify, it is not safe for anyone when someone decides to ignore the proper flow of traffic, whether it is a motor vehicle or a bicycle. Riding head on toward traffic and other cyclists is just plain out reckless. Any parent that as @ETrike said “compared to anyone caring less if they break a bicycle law to stay alive in today's traffic.
If I were you I'd give a kid a break for figuring out for himself whether he wants to cut his life short given what you know to be true concerning the latter”, is not parenting. They are teaching their kid to be entitled and self serving while endangering that kid and those that are obeying the rules of the road, (which exist for everyone).
You're likely not as nerved up as parents praying that their kids return home alive on a bike while not caring one bit how that happens.
Yet you are more on the brink of a breakdown as compared to anyone caring less if they break a bicycle law to stay alive in today's traffic.
If I were you I'd give a kid a break for figuring out for himself whether he wants to cut his life short given what you know to be true concerning the latter.
You may have just gotten to be the age that you are due to a lot safer streets than he or she is dealing with today.
Django
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Maybe plain English would help to clarify your position.
You're the one sending your kid out in to this world to always be a good doobie on a bicycle no mater the traffic situation or those most likely to make up the traffic.
Here's the quote in full as I forgot that anyone under say 60 may be 'triggered' if not coddled:
"You can be right or you can be dead right"
Therapy pony treatments are on me.
Here's the quote in full as I forgot that anyone under say 60 may be 'triggered' if not coddled:
"You can be right or you can be dead right"
Therapy pony treatments are on me.
Django
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You are misguided and seem to be incapable of understanding that chaotic traffic flow endangers everyone, including the hypothetical kid. If everyone arbitrarily chooses which side of the road to ride on everyone is endangered.
Your logic is flawed and dangerous. Listening to you will get the kid killed. There is natural selection, so at least we have that.
You don’t have to obey this law for the sake of obeying, you do it because it is the right and intelligent thing to do, which is probably why you have a problem with it.
You want special treatment, so it seems that you are the one looking to be coddled, snowflake. Save the therapy pony for yourself.
