Still having that clanking noise .. ready to give up.

[m@Robertson]

It’s a Zonkie 1/2x3/32 chain and a shimano Alivio cassette. Shimano derailleur, but don’t recall the model off hand. It’s a new one and adjusts correctly, shifts smoothly, as far as I can tell. Have a 32 tooth aftermkt front drive aluminum sprocket, but it does the same with the bafang 44t steel one too.
I’m wondering if a high end chain might help? Are there some that operate more smoothly? Even changed the shifter.

Ugh. If I had known what chain you were using I'd have pointed right at it.

Your chain is 6, 7 and 8s compatible. Zonkie (which I have never heard of) does not publish their outer chain width other than to use the sort of generic standard of 3/32". 3/32 of an inch works out to 0.28125", which translates to a metric value of 7.14 millimeters. Why do we care?

Remember that chain is supposed to be 6/7/8s compatible. Well, 6 speed chain standard width is 7.8mm. 7 speed is 7.3mm and 8 speed is usually between 7.0 and 7.3mm. So, IF their sizing is to be believed, your chain is a touch on the narrow side. It still should be compatible, but since you are experiencing problems I would say its a prime candidate for replacement.

A KMC Z7 is 7.3mm wide. US$13 on Amazon. Go for that one. It still may not be your problem. Unfortunately an Alivio cluster is bottom of the line. Its about a $16 part. But thats what you have to take when you are on 7 speed. Same with the chain. Its not mid drive stressed but KMC is the value-priced durability standard in the DIY industry, so its as good as you will get for 7s.

If I had an opportunity to advise in advance of this build, I'd recommend a Microshift Advent drivetrain. 11-46T Steel cluster is durable for a mid drive (your Alivio is too) and only $39 for a quality product. The derailleur and shifter are matched to it and only run about $100 for the pair. And its 9s which means you have a slew of quality mid-drive-strong chain options in addition to having more gears to choose from, which riding overland like you do, you would benefit from. 9s is the value/budget standard for hi powered DIY mid drives.

Maybe take a look at this:

https://talesontwowheels.com/2022/08/01/how-to-build-a-mid-drive-ebike-that-doesnt-break/

Maybe one of those dished sprockets for a little better alignment?

I thought you said you already had good alignment? If you don't, then thats a problem too. A skewed chain under power will always make Bad Things happen.

 

[m@Robertson]

Its been awhile since I looked at chains like this. It looks like the SRAM PC 830 is a 6/7/8 that has flared outer plates that should give better shifting. Its on sale for $8.99 here:

https://amzn.to/3JdaFnz

 

[sojourner]

This sure looks like a case where a repair stand would come in handy

 

[Greg47]

Ugh. If I had known what chain you were using I'd have pointed right at it.

Your chain is 6, 7 and 8s compatible. Zonkie (which I have never heard of) does not publish their outer chain width other than to use the sort of generic standard of 3/32". 3/32 of an inch works out to 0.28125", which translates to a metric value of 7.14 millimeters. Why do we care?

Remember that chain is supposed to be 6/7/8s compatible. Well, 6 speed chain standard width is 7.8mm. 7 speed is 7.3mm and 8 speed is usually between 7.0 and 7.3mm. So, IF their sizing is to be believed, your chain is a touch on the narrow side. It still should be compatible, but since you are experiencing problems I would say its a prime candidate for replacement.

A KMC Z7 is 7.3mm wide. US$13 on Amazon. Go for that one. It still may not be your problem. Unfortunately an Alivio cluster is bottom of the line. Its about a $16 part. But thats what you have to take when you are on 7 speed. Same with the chain. Its not mid drive stressed but KMC is the value-priced durability standard in the DIY industry, so its as good as you will get for 7s.

If I had an opportunity to advise in advance of this build, I'd recommend a Microshift Advent drivetrain. 11-46T Steel cluster is durable for a mid drive (your Alivio is too) and only $39 for a quality product. The derailleur and shifter are matched to it and only run about $100 for the pair. And its 9s which means you have a slew of quality mid-drive-strong chain options in addition to having more gears to choose from, which riding overland like you do, you would benefit from. 9s is the value/budget standard for hi powered DIY mid drives.

Maybe take a look at this:

https://talesontwowheels.com/2022/08/01/how-to-build-a-mid-drive-ebike-that-doesnt-break/
I thought you said you already had good alignment? If you don't, then thats a problem too. A skewed chain under power will always make Bad Things happen.

Just bought that chain, because I’d used them on numerous bikes including 2 other ebikes. And they got good reviews from Ebike users on there. I know very little about chains. I also like the link removal, replacement on this chain. The other mid drive I built is using that chain and is very quiet and smooth. 7 speed. its lower powered (250 w) but this one does it with very little power applied.
The cassette was only one I saw for 7 speed, which is plenty of speeds, since I use one or two almost all the time. Except in very soft sand or steep hills. But I’d be glad to change out shifter, cassette and chain if it would solve this problem. The bike originally had 7 speed so I stayed with that when I replaced the shifter, thinking simpler was better, but have no problem going to a higher number of gears. I’d like to find the problem and solve it. Have gone a lot of part changing stabbing in the dark, hoping to hit the cause. Might be the only way to do it here though.
I can measure the chain. I assume that‘s outside measurement? Wouldn’t the inside be more critical? I’d think if it was a chain compatibility problem, it would be more pronounced in some gears than others or even non existent in some?
alignment is good on some gears and of course, can’t be perfect on all of them. I could probably get the chain a little more inboard with one of those dished drive sprockets, but theyre higher teeth To clear the housing. It Still clanks on the gears it’s well aligned with (Higher gears).
I‘ll check that link.
thanks for your help!

 

[Greg47]

Its been awhile since I looked at chains like this. It looks like the SRAM PC 830 is a 6/7/8 that has flared outer plates that should give better shifting. Its on sale for $8.99 here:

https://amzn.to/3JdaFnz

It shifts smoothly and positively, but I’m willing to try anything at this point.. even thought of going to a hub drive, but that’s absolute last resort

 

[Greg47]

This sure looks like a case where a repair stand would come in handy

They are handy, but just don’t do enough to justify it. Hoping this is my last build..

 

[ronniebellie]

I built a couple mid drives last year using Bagang units. One 250 & a 750 fat bike for the woods. The Fat tire makes a clanking mouse intermittently that bugs me. It’s loud and is coming from the back. Only works when the power is on, not manually pedaling or coasting. at first I thought it was just the clunky nature of the freewheel style hub I had on it, but changed to a cassette rear wheel; no change. Have changed the sprocket front & rear (7sp), chain, display. Tried adjusting everything several times. Using an egg rider that I programmed according to one expert.
im beginning to think the motor is pulsing? Could it be the controller?
this is a ”stealth” bike for slipping around the woods, because this old man can’t walk like I used to.
any input appreciated.
Thanks,
Greg

Your issue certainly seems puzzling and it sounds like you've already done quite a bit of troubleshooting. Here are a few possible causes for the clanking noise you're hearing:

• Motor Issue: Given that the noise only occurs when the power is on and not when you're manually pedaling or coasting, it could be something to do with the motor. It's possible the motor is pulsing as you've suggested, which could mean that it's not engaging smoothly or there's some form of mechanical issue inside the motor itself.
• Controller Issue: If the controller isn't properly regulating power to the motor, it could be causing the motor to pulse or behave erratically, leading to the clanking sound. It could be worth checking your EggRider settings again and potentially trying a different controller to rule this out as a source of the problem.
• Chain Alignment: You mentioned changing the sprocket and chain, but if the chain isn't properly aligned, it could cause a similar noise. Make sure the chain line is straight and there's appropriate tension.
• Loose or Damaged Parts: It's always worth double-checking that all components are secured tightly and correctly, especially in the drivetrain and motor assembly. A loose part can cause a clanking noise when the bike is in operation.
• Incompatible or Incorrectly Configured Components: Ensure that all parts are compatible with each other, especially the motor, controller, and EggRider. It's possible that an incorrect configuration could be causing the issue.

It's definitely recommended to consult with a bike mechanic or an e-bike specialist if you continue to face issues. However, it's worth going through these steps to try and isolate the problem. In many cases, process of elimination can help you figure out what's causing the issue. Best of luck to you!

 

[Greg47]

Your issue certainly seems puzzling and it sounds like you've already done quite a bit of troubleshooting. Here are a few possible causes for the clanking noise you're hearing:

• Motor Issue: Given that the noise only occurs when the power is on and not when you're manually pedaling or coasting, it could be something to do with the motor. It's possible the motor is pulsing as you've suggested, which could mean that it's not engaging smoothly or there's some form of mechanical issue inside the motor itself.
• Controller Issue: If the controller isn't properly regulating power to the motor, it could be causing the motor to pulse or behave erratically, leading to the clanking sound. It could be worth checking your EggRider settings again and potentially trying a different controller to rule this out as a source of the problem.
• Chain Alignment: You mentioned changing the sprocket and chain, but if the chain isn't properly aligned, it could cause a similar noise. Make sure the chain line is straight and there's appropriate tension.
• Loose or Damaged Parts: It's always worth double-checking that all components are secured tightly and correctly, especially in the drivetrain and motor assembly. A loose part can cause a clanking noise when the bike is in operation.
• Incompatible or Incorrectly Configured Components: Ensure that all parts are compatible with each other, especially the motor, controller, and EggRider. It's possible that an incorrect configuration could be causing the issue.

It's definitely recommended to consult with a bike mechanic or an e-bike specialist if you continue to face issues. However, it's worth going through these steps to try and isolate the problem. In many cases, process of elimination can help you figure out what's causing the issue. Best of luck to you!

Thanks Ronnie,
I’ve looked at most of those. Except the motor innards. I did change out the egg rider with a bafang display with no change. As far as compatibility of drive train components, I guess that’s a possibility, but have changed all of them and back again with no change. I may try a dished drive sprocket next to see if that helps.
May look again at cheating tension.
Thanks for your time and input.

 

[m@Robertson]

Its the outer width of the chain that is the key measurement. The reason is your derailleur is moving a set distance assuming a chain of a specific width is in play, so the distance it moves is enough to get the chain to catch on the next cog over.

The SRAM chain I mentioned has inner chamfers on the outer plates that makes it more likely to have a shift that quickly takes, and sticks. It will also be less likely to pop/chatter when alignment is bad.

It would be a good idea to re-adjust your derailleur according to what you see in the video below. You can induce chain chatter in some of your gears and its possible that you have some of that going on here. Looking at what you said in the other thread, where you said the issue is in your bigger gears, its possible thats the problem here.



I don't know what your chain alignment looks like, but I have pics of one of mine that I can use to illustrate some areas of concern on chainline.

This is a 10s system (Microshift Advent X, a step up from the budget 9s Advent). That matters in the 3rd pic. In the left pic, the chain is on the biggest cog and, while it can get up there and pedals OK when I am gentle and on flat ground, any throttle or any pedaling in anger (steep hills) and it starts popping and skipping. The chain angle is too steep. For the middle pic, chain is on the smallest cog and it too pedals fine, and also does ok on flat ground with gentle throttle. Still, this is also too much chain skew. For the rightmost pic, I positioned the chain on the lower-middle cog... there are four below it and 5 above. The chain is still angled outward a tad. Which means its ideally biased into the upper cog range, which was deliberate.

Compare your angles to this. The chain will pop on each cog at the top as the chain leaves the cog. It may be that that - because you have fat rear hub spacing and a straight front chainring - that when you get up into your big cogs, you have some pretty steep angles. An offset chainring would make you go larger on the front, but to keep from bogging the motor you would use a bigger rear cluster and get more back than you lost by changing the front.

(note: That bike above has short stays for performance, so chain angles get steep fast. Your frame would be less restrictive)

So... look at the chain itself, the derailleur adjustment and the chain line. Still cheaper than buying another motor controller or motor.

 

[Greg47]

Its the outer width of the chain that is the key measurement. The reason is your derailleur is moving a set distance assuming a chain of a specific width is in play, so the distance it moves is enough to get the chain to catch on the next cog over.

The SRAM chain I mentioned has inner chamfers on the outer plates that makes it more likely to have a shift that quickly takes, and sticks. It will also be less likely to pop/chatter when alignment is bad.

It would be a good idea to re-adjust your derailleur according to what you see in the video below. You can induce chain chatter in some of your gears and its possible that you have some of that going on here. Looking at what you said in the other thread, where you said the issue is in your bigger gears, its possible thats the problem here.



I don't know what your chain alignment looks like, but I have pics of one of mine that I can use to illustrate some areas of concern on chainline.

This is a 10s system (Microshift Advent X, a step up from the budget 9s Advent). That matters in the 3rd pic. In the left pic, the chain is on the biggest cog and, while it can get up there and pedals OK when I am gentle and on flat ground, any throttle or any pedaling in anger (steep hills) and it starts popping and skipping. The chain angle is too steep. For the middle pic, chain is on the smallest cog and it too pedals fine, and also does ok on flat ground with gentle throttle. Still, this is also too much chain skew. For the rightmost pic, I positioned the chain on the lower-middle cog... there are four below it and 5 above. The chain is still angled outward a tad. Which means its ideally biased into the upper cog range, which was deliberate.

View attachment 9407View attachment 9408View attachment 9409

Compare your angles to this. The chain will pop on each cog at the top as the chain leaves the cog. It may be that that - because you have fat rear hub spacing and a straight front chainring - that when you get up into your big cogs, you have some pretty steep angles. An offset chainring would make you go larger on the front, but to keep from bogging the motor you would use a bigger rear cluster and get more back than you lost by changing the front.

(note: That bike above has short stays for performance, so chain angles get steep fast. Your frame would be less restrictive)

So... look at the chain itself, the derailleur adjustment and the chain line. Still cheaper than buying another motor controller or motor.

I don’t have as much deflection as your top pic. I do have a couple gears that are almost straight and still have the intermittent clunk.
Your derailleur is closer aligned with the gear it’s in than mine. All the instructions I’ve gotten tell me to have the hanger slightly inboard of the gear it’s in.
I may need more chain tension.
Do you feel it when your chain jumps a cog?
I’m also looking into a more dished chainring, to get better alignment with the larger gears.
Do you think changing to a 9 speed drive train would help, even if the problem exists on the gears that are very well aligned with the chain ring?
I don’t feel anything when the noise occurs.
Thanks again for your expertise.

 

[m@Robertson]

Your derailleur is closer aligned with the gear it’s in than mine. All the instructions I’ve gotten tell me to have the hanger slightly inboard of the gear it’s in.

Its the top pulley position that matters. The hanger is just the thing that attaches the derailleur to the frame. You want the pulley to be a bit forward to ensure the chain has as much tooth engagement as possible on cogs that matter. In other words cogs the chain is actually pulling on. You don't want that pulley all the way underneath the cog for instance. This is something that I think is covered in that Park video. Follow whatever that says.

I may need more chain tension.

Not on your big cog. Its perfect. On the little cog, you want just enough tension to pull the deraileur cage taut, and the chain does not touch the top pulley, which is now in front of the bottom one because the cage is now horizontal. Then remove one more link to make sure it stays taut when the bike is bouncing around. Like this, although on this bike I had to remove one more link because of said bouncing around.

Most amateur bike builders make the huge mistake of chains that are way too short. Cheap bike manufacturers also do it either out of stupidity or because they are saving a penny or three on each bike by using a shorter chain. The derailleur cage exists to wrap chain. You have to let it do its job and thats what most people miss.

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/bl...installing-a-new-chain-for-your-1x-drivetrain

Do you feel it when your chain jumps a cog?

Yes. But you wouldn't if its only a catch on an outer plate edge and not an actual slip. Thats why I was getting into the weeds over 0.2mm of chain width and chamfered edges.

I’m also looking into a more dished chainring, to get better alignment with the larger gears.

Be careful as you can contact the chainstay if you have too much offset. Look carefully at how far away that chainring is now from the stay and try and extrapolate what a bigger one that also moves the teeth closer will do to clearance. Looking at your pic, it is very possible you don't have room to do this.

Do you think changing to a 9 speed drive train would help, even if the problem exists on the gears that are very well aligned with the chain ring?

Well you'd be improving the quality of everything, and probably removing a part that is the source of the problem you have. But there's no telling say since we haven't figured out what the problem is yet, and look at the list of parts you've already spent on trying to figure this out. If you go to a bigger offset chainring this is probably a necessary companion move because you will go bigger on the front chainring and further tax your gearing, which you should *never* allow to bog down. That motor has to keep spinning fast or it will blow the controller. The BBS02 is particularly known for this issue. I think a hunting bike with such a small rear cluster is probably going to make the motor die a lot sooner than it would otherwise.

Do you have, by the way, a narrow-wide front chainring? It looks like the basic BBS02 ring. take a look at this:

https://california-ebike.com/products/california-ebike-chainring-adapter-for-bbs02
This is an adapter that will let you use aftermarket chainrings. So lets say you use the 104 BCD size. This thing gives no special offset. But with the right chainring bolts, you can put them and the chainring on backwards - on the inside of the chainring adapter - for almost zero clearance loss next to the motor (I have done this albeit on a BBSHD). So while you can NOT play this game and just mount it on the outside, you can also flip everything and essentially mount it on the inside and gain a few mm of offset.

But don't think about that now. Just think on mounting it as normal. Take that adapter and add this 36T front chainring:

https://amzn.to/3JbLRfK
Twelve bucks. Deckas chainrings are cheap and well made. You can go Wolftooth for about $60 and they are great, but I have found these to work really well.

And if 36T doesn't rwork out you can go lower or higher, and swap in different brands. But you'd have a narrow-wide ring up front which is a good thing.

 

[Greg47]

Its the top pulley position that matters. The hanger is just the thing that attaches the derailleur to the frame. You want the pulley to be a bit forward to ensure the chain has as much tooth engagement as possible on cogs that matter. In other words cogs the chain is actually pulling on. You don't want that pulley all the way underneath the cog for instance. This is something that I think is covered in that Park video. Follow whatever that says.

Not on your big cog. Its perfect. On the little cog, you want just enough tension to pull the deraileur cage taut, and the chain does not touch the top pulley, which is now in front of the bottom one because the cage is now horizontal. Then remove one more link to make sure it stays taut when the bike is bouncing around. Like this, although on this bike I had to remove one more link because of said bouncing around.

View attachment 9413

Most amateur bike builders make the huge mistake of chains that are way too short. Cheap bike manufacturers also do it either out of stupidity or because they are saving a penny or three on each bike by using a shorter chain. The derailleur cage exists to wrap chain. You have to let it do its job and thats what most people miss.

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/bl...installing-a-new-chain-for-your-1x-drivetrain

Yes. But you wouldn't if its only a catch on an outer plate edge and not an actual slip. Thats why I was getting into the weeds over 0.2mm of chain width and chamfered edges.


Be careful as you can contact the chainstay if you have too much offset. Look carefully at how far away that chainring is now from the stay and try and extrapolate what a bigger one that also moves the teeth closer will do to clearance. Looking at your pic, it is very possible you don't have room to do this.


Well you'd be improving the quality of everything, and probably removing a part that is the source of the problem you have. But there's no telling say since we haven't figured out what the problem is yet, and look at the list of parts you've already spent on trying to figure this out. If you go to a bigger offset chainring this is probably a necessary companion move because you will go bigger on the front chainring and further tax your gearing, which you should *never* allow to bog down. That motor has to keep spinning fast or it will blow the controller. The BBS02 is particularly known for this issue. I think a hunting bike with such a small rear cluster is probably going to make the motor die a lot sooner than it would otherwise.

Do you have, by the way, a narrow-wide front chainring? It looks like the basic BBS02 ring. take a look at this:

https://california-ebike.com/products/california-ebike-chainring-adapter-for-bbs02
This is an adapter that will let you use aftermarket chainrings. So lets say you use the 104 BCD size. This thing gives no special offset. But with the right chainring bolts, you can put them and the chainring on backwards - on the inside of the chainring adapter - for almost zero clearance loss next to the motor (I have done this albeit on a BBSHD). So while you can NOT play this game and just mount it on the outside, you can also flip everything and essentially mount it on the inside and gain a few mm of offset.

But don't think about that now. Just think on mounting it as normal. Take that adapter and add this 36T front chainring:

https://amzn.to/3JbLRfK
Twelve bucks. Deckas chainrings are cheap and well made. You can go Wolftooth for about $60 and they are great, but I have found these to work really well.

And if 36T doesn't rwork out you can go lower or higher, and swap in different brands. But you'd have a narrow-wide ring up front which is a good thing.

The chainring I’m using is this one. It’s a narrow wide design. 36t.

Accolmile 36T Chainring for BBS02 BBS01 BBSHD : Chain Ring for BBS02B BBS01B / BBSHD Mid Drive Kit, Chainwheel for eBike Motor, Chain Wheel for Electric Bike Conversion Kits​

But I’ve swapped it back & forth to see if there was any difference. I’ll try another 36 with some dish and put a chain with some inside bevel on.

I may go ahead and take it to an ebike shop 50 miles away to see if they can figure it out.
I can also just live with it. The bike rides great and goes anywhere I need to go with it.
I sure appreciate you expertise and time. I’ve learned a lot in this conversation.

 

[m@Robertson]

good luck!

If you ever track down what the problem is, let us know so we'll know for the next guy that comes around.

 

[Greg47]

good luck!

If you ever track down what the problem is, let us know so we'll know for the next guy that comes around.

Will do. Thanks again!

 

[Chuy]

I am curious to find out if and how this has been resolved.

I recently tuned up my sister’s Schwinn trike and one of her complaints was a rear ticking sound when she applied pedal force. Someone previously had taken apart the rear hub to address her other complaint of reduced rear braking. They reinstalled it incorrectly, tightening the bearing axle nut too tight, causing binding.

 

[Greg47]

I am curious to find out if and how this has been resolved.

I recently tuned up my sister’s Schwinn trike and one of her complaints was a rear ticking sound when she applied pedal force. Someone previously had taken apart the rear hub to address her other complaint of reduced rear braking. They reinstalled it incorrectly, tightening the bearing axle nut too tight, causing binding.

Not totally. I replaced the rear wheel with a cassette system. Stronger and less clicking, but still some. Beginning to think it’s a motor stutter, though I can’t feel it..

 

[Superb_Raccoon]

I was thinking it might be a little chain engagement problem. It’s a Zonkie 1/2x3/32 chain and a shimano Alivio cassette. Shimano derailleur, but don’t recall the model off hand. It’s a new one and adjusts correctly, shifts smoothly, as far as I can tell. Have a 32 tooth aftermkt front drive aluminum sprocket, but it does the same with the bafang 44t steel one too.
I’m wondering if a high end chain might help? Are there some that operate more smoothly? Even changed the shifter.
Maybe one of those dished sprockets for a little better alignment?

Late to the party, but chain hop came to mind. Replaced cluster, life is better. Had worn down ramps on the teeth.

 

[Greg47]

Late to the party, but chain hop came to mind. Replaced cluster, life is better. Had worn down ramps on the teeth.

It’s a new bike, and I’ve replaced the cluster and also converted it to cassette. Changed the chain and front chainring as well.

 

[Greg47]

Still no idea what’s causing this!
I’m wondering if it’s a motor issue from the factory. Pulsing maybe.
I guess I could change out the rotor and stator or the controller.
Any ideas which would be more likely together the cause of a power pulse?
I kept hoping it would heal up in its own.. but no dice.
Lots of knowledge on here. Any help appreciated!

 

[hugh]

It's a bit of a stretch but you seem to have replaced and/or checked pretty much everything except the rear disc brake system. I convert most of my builds to disc's using homemade mounting brackets and have found ensuing the disc runs straight inside the caliper with minimal clearance for the brake pads is important. The caliper mounts usually have a small bit of adjustability, they are slotted to allow some alignment.