Bigwheeler
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- Jul 13, 2020
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Luna has been around for a long time mostly doing mail order kit components and batteries. They are kind of the Heavy Metal bad boys of the industry and make no bones about it. The main player Eric is a piece of work but there is no denying his passion for EV's. They are the ones responsible for the Sur Ron e moto's success here in the states.
Primarily they have been focused on their "ludicrous" mode overpowered contraptions and have a pretty good following that would not be allowed to post on this forum due to the fact they are not following the rules. So it goes and they have been around for years and I personally have never run into any of them. Whatever.
But here recently Luna seems to have come to realize that their experience and contacts overseas developed over the years puts them at a distinct advantage if they decided to put out some more main stream bikes. They have been taking KHS bikes and converting them for awhile but now they have are offering the X-1 as mentioned and the "Fixie" which is anything but actually as it is a city type bike with a mid-drive but whatever.
The heart of the new bike is very interesting to me at least and has been on my radar for a few years. The M600 series Bafang is basically the same dimensions as an E8000 and here is a description grab that showcases how different it is from the Bafang kit motors although it is similar to the larger and over legal watt Ultra:
But the problem is that the frame is an open mould and geo is about 3 years behind the times for what could be considered a modern Enduro bike. The components are decent for the price though and I know of a guy in Canada that has been riding one he sourced himself last fall that loves it. Quiet with good power.
Bottom line is that although they offer the ludicrous mode for the bike I doubt many if any people that buy the bike and use it for trail riding will opt for it. Besides the reason it is illegal that much power just isn't necessary for riding single track, especially with that much torque on tap at legal wattage. One thing for sure is that it is the only modern type mid drive that has a throttle option and to me at least that is not a bad thing as I have one on my mtb and although I don't use it much it is nice to have on board.
Primarily they have been focused on their "ludicrous" mode overpowered contraptions and have a pretty good following that would not be allowed to post on this forum due to the fact they are not following the rules. So it goes and they have been around for years and I personally have never run into any of them. Whatever.
But here recently Luna seems to have come to realize that their experience and contacts overseas developed over the years puts them at a distinct advantage if they decided to put out some more main stream bikes. They have been taking KHS bikes and converting them for awhile but now they have are offering the X-1 as mentioned and the "Fixie" which is anything but actually as it is a city type bike with a mid-drive but whatever.
The heart of the new bike is very interesting to me at least and has been on my radar for a few years. The M600 series Bafang is basically the same dimensions as an E8000 and here is a description grab that showcases how different it is from the Bafang kit motors although it is similar to the larger and over legal watt Ultra:
But the problem is that the frame is an open mould and geo is about 3 years behind the times for what could be considered a modern Enduro bike. The components are decent for the price though and I know of a guy in Canada that has been riding one he sourced himself last fall that loves it. Quiet with good power.
Bottom line is that although they offer the ludicrous mode for the bike I doubt many if any people that buy the bike and use it for trail riding will opt for it. Besides the reason it is illegal that much power just isn't necessary for riding single track, especially with that much torque on tap at legal wattage. One thing for sure is that it is the only modern type mid drive that has a throttle option and to me at least that is not a bad thing as I have one on my mtb and although I don't use it much it is nice to have on board.
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portnuefpeddler
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- Local time
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- Jul 17, 2020
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- 35
I've had nothing but favorable relations with LUNA for several years now. "Can't please everybody all the times" comes to mind when reading your slamming of them. i have never bought a complete bike, but 4 or 5 conversion kits, a Rohloff hub, and lots of incidentals. They have teething problems like any rapidly growing small company, but are true ebike fanatics and proponents, and they ride what they sell. Their pricing absolutely cannot be beat, so I'm willing to work with them on any issues that do arise. Sounds like you would be the type, craigsj, to buy from your LBS so they could offer you the kind of service you seem to think you deserve. Luna's strong point is supplying guys like me who are builders and want parts, I have no experience with their ready to ride bikes.
While certainly a compelling reason to be interested, this is just software and easily modified by any brand. I have just made the 3rd update on my Shimano DU e8000 and everytime I do it, there is a noticable improvement in battery life, or rider experience (smoother shifting in higher assistance modes). Shimano is in deep on this and just at the beginning, I assume that in another 5 years we will be blown away by the seamless interaction. I'm stoked!
Yup, their only area of expertise is in the E part of ebike. The only reason this one resembles an older model trail bike is that some Chinese engineer copied one and Luna had nothing to do with it. Reading Eric's posts on FB makes it clear that he hasn't a clue and doesn't care. Nor do the majority of his fan base.
https://newatlas.com/luna-x1-enduro-...pension/60227/
The bike can be switched to 600w with the turn of a screwdriver or you can buy it in granny mode.
The bike can be switched to 600w with the turn of a screwdriver or you can buy it in granny mode.
I have no personal experience with Luna, but a couple things to beware of that I've noticed:
1) The owner is a bit clueless about bicycles. I've watched a few Youtube videos that he's done, and when talking about his bikes, the guy often forgets what even basic components are called (the term "headsets", calling suspension forks "shocks", etc). Let's face it, if you can't even remember that stuff, then there's no way in hell you understand more complex things like suspension dynamics and geometry. He is clearly passionate though about high-output motors and electronics.
2) The company is going to give e-bikes a bad reputation. There appears to be a "gentleman's agreement" among the major e-bike/emtb motor manufacturers (Shimano, Yamaha, Bosch, and Brose) to limit motor output to ~250 watts continuous or 750 watts max, with no easy way to modify the motors/controllers to produce more. In other words, they clearly want to make sure that e-bikes stay compliant with existing and emerging public use laws and safety. Luna on the other hand seems to be pushing a bike that appears legal to be ridden on authorized trails, but clearly is easily modified to be otherwise (or just buy it souped up from the start).
I understand that there's a market for ebikes for "closed-course" or motorized trail use, but this has to be a very tiny portion of the overall market. They already sell the Sur-Ron for this market. It personally bothers me that they are offering this integrated (i.e., stealthy) bike in a high-output option, and with a throttle option, so more people can potentially poach trails that are designated only for Class I e-bikes. Keep in mind, I am someone who owns dual-sport/offroad motorcycles, and who sits on the libertarian end of political policy.
1) The owner is a bit clueless about bicycles. I've watched a few Youtube videos that he's done, and when talking about his bikes, the guy often forgets what even basic components are called (the term "headsets", calling suspension forks "shocks", etc). Let's face it, if you can't even remember that stuff, then there's no way in hell you understand more complex things like suspension dynamics and geometry. He is clearly passionate though about high-output motors and electronics.
2) The company is going to give e-bikes a bad reputation. There appears to be a "gentleman's agreement" among the major e-bike/emtb motor manufacturers (Shimano, Yamaha, Bosch, and Brose) to limit motor output to ~250 watts continuous or 750 watts max, with no easy way to modify the motors/controllers to produce more. In other words, they clearly want to make sure that e-bikes stay compliant with existing and emerging public use laws and safety. Luna on the other hand seems to be pushing a bike that appears legal to be ridden on authorized trails, but clearly is easily modified to be otherwise (or just buy it souped up from the start).
I understand that there's a market for ebikes for "closed-course" or motorized trail use, but this has to be a very tiny portion of the overall market. They already sell the Sur-Ron for this market. It personally bothers me that they are offering this integrated (i.e., stealthy) bike in a high-output option, and with a throttle option, so more people can potentially poach trails that are designated only for Class I e-bikes. Keep in mind, I am someone who owns dual-sport/offroad motorcycles, and who sits on the libertarian end of political policy.
portnuefpeddler
Member
- Local time
- 9:14 PM
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2020
- Messages
- 35
Sorry if I appear to you to have "attacked you", (but I don't really want to take the time to read your past posts) but I would think you would be better served by a LBS in your next purchase, that way you can go back there face to face and resolve any complaints you have after the sale, first hand. This would save you the hassle of making blanket condemnations of a company via the internet, where interested followers can only see your side of things. I have done 5 or 6 K worth of biz with Luna, and will continue to give them my business. The joy I have gotten by riding a bike that they had something to is worth every penny.
A quick example: today I am in my crane (my occupation, crane service) lifting gravel off a rooftop of a Federal courthouse with a debris bucket. At 11:45, the roof top crew (who were doing all the work, shoveling the gravel) decided it was lunch time, and they signaled to me to shut it down, then they all got in the company crew cab truck and went probably, to the nearest fast food joint. Me, being a 47 year vegan, got my Giant Talon/BBS02 conversion out of the custom compartment I built onto the crane for it (it takes less then 30 seconds, in fact their pickup was still in the parking lot when I was exiting it) and rode a quick half mile to a lunch place more to my liking, and didn't walk in sweating.
While enjoying this quick ride, I could have cared less that Eric of Luna may or may not use the proper bike terms like head set, shock absorbers or whatever, I guess, being one of his fans, I can say I just don't care. All I know, is that between the local trail riding I do on my fatbike, and the adventures I have on the Montague conversion I carry in the plane, plus the crane bike, Luna has enriched MY life tremendously. Sorry your experience with them has been less so.
Luna will give ebikes a bad rep, like Ruger or Smith & Wesson gives hand guns a bad rep, it's up to the end user to use it responsibly. Maybe the big hand gun makers should limit their firepower to BB gun type forces, like the Euro designed bikes with 250 watts of power.
A quick example: today I am in my crane (my occupation, crane service) lifting gravel off a rooftop of a Federal courthouse with a debris bucket. At 11:45, the roof top crew (who were doing all the work, shoveling the gravel) decided it was lunch time, and they signaled to me to shut it down, then they all got in the company crew cab truck and went probably, to the nearest fast food joint. Me, being a 47 year vegan, got my Giant Talon/BBS02 conversion out of the custom compartment I built onto the crane for it (it takes less then 30 seconds, in fact their pickup was still in the parking lot when I was exiting it) and rode a quick half mile to a lunch place more to my liking, and didn't walk in sweating.
While enjoying this quick ride, I could have cared less that Eric of Luna may or may not use the proper bike terms like head set, shock absorbers or whatever, I guess, being one of his fans, I can say I just don't care. All I know, is that between the local trail riding I do on my fatbike, and the adventures I have on the Montague conversion I carry in the plane, plus the crane bike, Luna has enriched MY life tremendously. Sorry your experience with them has been less so.
Luna will give ebikes a bad rep, like Ruger or Smith & Wesson gives hand guns a bad rep, it's up to the end user to use it responsibly. Maybe the big hand gun makers should limit their firepower to BB gun type forces, like the Euro designed bikes with 250 watts of power.
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The language they use in their description of this bike is very misleading.
There are 3 purchase options: Standard Mode (750 watts) with Throttle (1000 watt Peak), Ludicrous Mode (2000 watts) NO THROTTLE $300.00, and Granny Mode (300 watts) 20mph Top Speed and NO THROTTLE.
Only the "Granny Mode" bike would be legal on non-motorized trails limited to Class I bikes. However, the description makes these claims:
"While most other production bikes on the market are 250 watt Euro spec bikes with no throttle and no real power. With most limits in the USA set at 750 watts, this drive is perfectly suited for our market, allowing it to be used on most Class-1 trails legally with non-Ludicrous mode."
Based on this statement, it is likely that people not familiar with current e-bike laws will assume that the "Standard Mode" bike would be legal on Class I trails. It has a throttle, so that is false.
I'm also not thrilled about the language used in this paragraph:
"The X-1 is a legitimate contender for ANY other electric Enduro eBike on the market, and will fit in on almost ANY trail due to the stealthy design and quietness. At first glance, it will appear to be a tricked out Enduro eBike to even the most seasoned riders, allowing you to hold your head high as you share the trail with standard bikes and eBike alike."
I could be mistaken, but I'm almost certain that the original wording was "Enduro bike" and not "Enduro eBike", and the last three words of that sentence ("and eBike alike") were just added later today, because they were not there when I read it earlier today.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that this product is bad, or that Luna should only offer low-powered ebikes. However, I do believe that Luna has a responsibility to MAKE IT VERY CLEAR to their customers which bike would be LEGAL on Class I trails/paths, and which ones are for motorized (ATV/MC) trail use only.
There are 3 purchase options: Standard Mode (750 watts) with Throttle (1000 watt Peak), Ludicrous Mode (2000 watts) NO THROTTLE $300.00, and Granny Mode (300 watts) 20mph Top Speed and NO THROTTLE.
Only the "Granny Mode" bike would be legal on non-motorized trails limited to Class I bikes. However, the description makes these claims:
"While most other production bikes on the market are 250 watt Euro spec bikes with no throttle and no real power. With most limits in the USA set at 750 watts, this drive is perfectly suited for our market, allowing it to be used on most Class-1 trails legally with non-Ludicrous mode."
Based on this statement, it is likely that people not familiar with current e-bike laws will assume that the "Standard Mode" bike would be legal on Class I trails. It has a throttle, so that is false.
I'm also not thrilled about the language used in this paragraph:
"The X-1 is a legitimate contender for ANY other electric Enduro eBike on the market, and will fit in on almost ANY trail due to the stealthy design and quietness. At first glance, it will appear to be a tricked out Enduro eBike to even the most seasoned riders, allowing you to hold your head high as you share the trail with standard bikes and eBike alike."
I could be mistaken, but I'm almost certain that the original wording was "Enduro bike" and not "Enduro eBike", and the last three words of that sentence ("and eBike alike") were just added later today, because they were not there when I read it earlier today.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that this product is bad, or that Luna should only offer low-powered ebikes. However, I do believe that Luna has a responsibility to MAKE IT VERY CLEAR to their customers which bike would be LEGAL on Class I trails/paths, and which ones are for motorized (ATV/MC) trail use only.
The proper analogy would be Ruger offering 2 gun options on a product page that look alike, but one fires BB's and one fires bullets. But yet the description makes it appear that you could legally bring either one to your local cub scout meeting, and BB guns are for sissies.
