Bike trail and intersection problem

[pagheca]

@JerryB ,

indeed a system in which election campaigns cost several billion at a time is destined for this result...

In many European countries, however, although the problem is extremely less felt (generally, not always), the issue is that democracy get dementia when aging, people are constantly complaining about everything on the most abstruse grounds, they are unable to distinguish what to complain from what is just ok ... and media and social, whose survival depends on it, act as a flywheel. There are plenty of cases indeed of politicians with normal jobs and incomes in Europe.

The fact remains that we end up with powerful economic forces everywhere pushing us to think that environmentalism is a negative drift in society. I have been dealing with climate issues for decades for my work. I am just doing a study about some ancillary aspects, and I assure you I am scared s**tless. For me but especially for my (and yours, if you have any) son.

Having bought an ebike is an important part of my miserable attempts to do something about that, however pathetic.

 

[pagheca]

He makes some good points but cherry-picks what's bad about the U.S. and Canadian road systems. Of course, you can find "stroads" all over the U.S. and Canada but they are not inefficient wastes of low tax revenue generating properties. There are plenty of roads, streets, highways, beltways, parkways, and other places we drive our V8 autos. Unfriendly to cyclists? You bet. But our economy, population, lifestyles, climate, land mass, etc are way different than the Netherlands. Sounds like someone is jealous of our culture. If it's so great in the Netherlands, good for them. We kind of like it here.

to be honest, @neutron, I don't think anymore in terms of "my culture" or "my lifestyle". I abandoned this mindset long ago, when I left my country and started living all over different places (including the US). I accept the strongest criticism to my country - Italy - without any nationalist regurgitation, believe me. If some criticism is correct it's totally fine with me (if is just racism or disinformation, is not).

The problem is another one: "your" V8 is polluting "our" - and I repeat "our" - planet much more than my little Kia Picanto and my ebike that I use whenever I can. And my little Kia Picanto (and, in general, my lifestyle) is polluting and have a much higher footprint than the average guy in India or some African country (but they will pay the price first).

 

[jimthecanoeist]

I live next to a rail to trail bike trail that intersects with a very busy two lane road with a center turn lane and three side streets that run parallel to the trail if you can envision that. Anyway, the intersection has always been a problem and several accidents between cars and bikes have occurred here.
For years it has just been marked as a cross walk with signage warning of the crosswalk for approaching cars and signs on the trail warning walkers and cyclists to stop before crossing. Over the years they have tried some modifications including those little rubber poles in the middle of the street with a picture of a bike and small stop sign that caused people to stop even though no bikes or walkers were in the intersection. They also installed overhead flashing yellow lights to call attention to the crossing. In Maryland vehicles are required to stop if someone is in the crosswalk, but not if the bike or walkers are approaching the crosswalk, only within the crosswalk.
Most drivers would slow down and stop if they saw someone approaching the crosswalk as a courtesy or out of fear that the bike or pedestrian would not stop and dart out in front of them which was a common occurrence. Some drivers would jam on the brakes when seeing a bike or runner 50 yds up the trail!
Very frustrating for traffic behind this type of driver and confusing to cars approaching from the opposite direction since they may not see any reason to stop. It was also not good for a biker because he would see the car stopping for him to cross but not sure the cars coming from the opposite direction were also going to stop since he wasn't to the crossing yet. Technically the bike had the stop sign, not the cars.

Recently the county decided to add additional measures to the intersection. They installed traffic lights that sense automatically when someone is on the bike trail approaching the intersection and change the flashing yellow lights to red for the cars to stop.
They also installed the walk/don't walk signs for trail users with a button to push at the crossing in case the sensor doesn't pick them up or if they approach the crossing from other than the trail.
This system cost the county several hundred thousand dollars (maybe $800,00 IIRC). It has been a miserable failure. Bikes reach the intersection before the light turns red so cars stop anyway to let the bikes cross. Once the bikes cross, the light turns red and the cars are still sitting there with no one using the crossing! The bikes cross even though the walk/don't walk sign says don't walk. Once the bikes cross, the light for the cars stays red for another 15 seconds or so and then goes back to flashing yellow again. About this time the pedestrian on the trail makes it to the crosswalk as the don't walk sign comes on again. The line of cars that started to proceed through the intersection comes to a stop for the pedestrians even though the light is not red.
Again, they are stopping as a courtesy to the pedestrian, not because of traffic laws. In the meantime the pedestrian has pushed the crosswalk button so the signal is sent to the traffic light to turn red again, but by the time it does turn red the pedestrian has already crossed and the cars are sitting at a red light with no one crossing!
Adding to this, the side streets on both sides of the trail also have red lights that are synced with the main roads signal so they turn red at the same time. Lots of cars sitting idling at red lights for no reason. So now the county sent out a letter stating that the lights are not working as planned and will just go back to flashing yellow with no red lights! Could have used that money to build another mile of bike trail!

Seems to be another example of government solutions making things worse. As a motorist and bicyclist, I say just don't try to help the situation. In fact, I'd not add anything to a basic crosswalk and let Darwinism solve those who cannot use their brains and senses to manage a safe crossing. Forgive me. I think the nanny state is worse than traffic mishaps.

 

[JerryB]

Pollution has always been a problem.....it's not new.....the automobile was advertised as "the solution to pollution" back in the early 1900s because it would replace all the horses. In 1900....it is estimated that we had 30 million horses in the country. In New York City....they say there were over 200,000 horses on the streets every day....7 days a week. The average 1000lb horse drops 35 lbs of manure a day and pees 5.5 gallons. They had hundreds of works wagons....pulled by horses....and two man crews to scoop the streets. You know what they did with the poop? Put it on barges and took it out in the rivers surrounding the city and dumped it. They say the stench on hot humid days was unbelieveable. Our curent pollution problems will eventually be replaced by new pollution problems......mankind is really messy. Wonder where my grandkids ar going to put all those used up batteries....dump them in the rivers?

 

[LarryG]

$2500/yr for maintenance?! C'mon. I know they may have budgeted for that, but I bet there's almost zero maintenance. Maybe just replacing a push-button every 5 years.

The bridge I'm thinking of would be a simple steel one, just for bikes and pedestrians, not for cars. I think that could easily be done for $200k. No?

Maybe for $200K. It depends on how good the county is in describing the job and soliciting bids. I've seen $200K jobs turn into $500K jobs in a blink, due to government inefficiency.

 

[neutron]

Maybe for $200K. It depends on how good the county is in describing the job and soliciting bids. I've seen $200K jobs turn into $500K jobs in a blink, due to government inefficiency.

Did you read post # 17? $16.8 million.

 

[addertooth]

I think a "STOP" sign for the bicycles, and a second sign that says "Press the crosswalk button and wait for the WALK symbol before crossing" is the Occam's razor answer.

Answer number 2: Move the bicycle "sensors" further up the trail, so that the red light for the cars will have time to engage.

 

[pagheca]

if you put the sensor too far whoever is going too slow might arrive at the intersection when the light is already red: someone going 10 kmh (father with young child) takes 3 times as long as someone going 30 kmh (youngster with ebike). Assuming the yellow cycle lasts 15 seconds, for example, the former will do 40 m and the latter 125 m in the same time period. Where to put the sensor? At 80 m (half)? at 125?

Perhaps a recommended speed should be suggested, don't know, but just a reminder that things are never simple.

Said that, I do not understand why there is not yet a link to google maps with the position of the interesection... I would be curious to see this thing.

 

[neutron]

39°04'44.06" N 76°33'10.22" W

 

[pagheca]

thank you, this makes things much more clear. I add a link to google maps to "visit" virtually the actual intersection:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

I am no expert, but I see that there are 4 roads running parallel to the trail. This makes the intersection pretty dangerous in case someone turn right while someone is crossing the main road.

What looks exorbitant is the cost of the overall thing. Are you sure about the "several hundred thousand dollars (maybe $800,00 IIRC)."? I say this because sometimes these numbers are given just to protest, protest and protest against "the state," "the government," etc.

 

[neutron]

I'm still not sure how to post a link to Google Earth but with these coordinates, you should be able to go to G. E. and look at the street view. If you look around you will see the double red lights for the side streets, and the trail sensors located on poles above the walk/don't walk signs. The newest solution that is going to be implemented by the county is to have the signals just blink with no red lights on Robinson Rd. and to install some sort of barriers on each side of the trail so that bikes will have to slow down or dismount to negotiate getting around the barriers to enter the intersection. I forget what they call those barriers but maybe it will help prevent cyclists from shooting across without slowing down. The changes are due to be in effect soon, weather-dependent.

 

[neutron]

thank you, this makes things much more clear. I add a link to google maps to "visit" virtually the actual intersection:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

I am no expert, but I see that there are 4 roads running parallel to the trail. This makes the intersection pretty dangerous in case someone turn right while someone is crossing the main road.

What looks exorbitant is the cost of the overall thing. Are you sure about the "several hundred thousand dollars (maybe $800,00 IIRC)."? I say this because sometimes these numbers are given just to protest, protest and protest against "the state," "the government," etc.

See post #7. I corrected my guess to $135K plus the additional sensors which brought the price up to around $200k. If you look closely you will see those side streets each have their own signal which flashes red until someone activates the crosswalk signal. At that point, all traffic gets steady red while the "walk" signal is on, and 12 more seconds after the "walk" signal starts to blink "don't walk". Actually there are 3 roads parallel to the trail not 4. You may be looking at a driveway across from Owens Way thinking that is a road.

 

[pagheca]

to put a link to google maps... just copy & paste the link! . Much faster than Google Earth...

Because I am very interested in sustainable mobility solutions, I searched around and found a few articles about this intersection. Apparently there have been 11 accidents there, although it is not clear in how many years:

There have been 11 crashes (three including bikes), multiple near-misses, and violations of bicyclists ignoring stop signs.

from https://www.pasadenavoice.com/stori...obinson-road-intersection-signal-system,65184 .

The article also says that

The flashing yellow signal alerts drivers as they approach the crossing; motorists have the right-of-way during this phase of the signal’s operation. When trail users press the signal button, the light will switch to a solid yellow to prepare drivers to stop at the designated line before the crosswalk. When pedestrians see the flashing walk symbol, it is safe to cross while drivers have a solid red light.

Flores added that trail users can expect a 12-second minimum wait to cross, with up to a 57-second wait if traffic is heavy.

but I do not know if this was before, or after, the installation of the "sensors" you mentioned. I guess BEFORE (the article is dated September 2023). In any case, I maintain my opinion that we, cyclists, are not, as they says, "children of a lesser god" but have the same rights as cars users. In fact, we should have even more rights, because we do not contribute to the climate crisis as them.

Also by reading this forum, I realized that these kinds of positions may seem very extreme to some - not all - Americans, but a dialogue can be created in which everyone puts their own spin on it, and maybe we will meet somewhere, sooner or later. After all, some of the policies in which the U.S. pioneered have since spread just about everywhere. Why not accept that the reverse may also happen?

And by the way, $135K looks as a reasonable amount of money for that, all considered. I am a scientist but since many years I am involved in the construction of large scientific infrastructure as a Site Manager, and I know how many steps and people involved this kind of thing require.

 

[HumanPerson]

Well, calamri is quite good, that's me opiniononion

 

[HumanPerson]

Have a good time of day where ever you all are

 

[pagheca]

@HumanPerson , I like to have a good laugh, but you have to be a bit more clear with me... It's the third time in a row I do not understand what you write...

 

[HumanPerson]

@HumanPerson , I like to have a good laugh, but you have to be a bit more clear with me... It's the third time in a row I do not understand what you write...

My friend, i dun't understand either heh heh

 

[pagheca]

Ha, ok. But be careful with whatever you are smoking then: not good for cycling...

 

[HumanPerson]

Ha, ok. But be careful with whatever you are smoking then: not good for cycling...

twas just a wee bit of Green Dragon in me coffee lol

 

[HumanPerson]

Anyway, sorry for interupting, you all have a great time of day where ever you all are