Is 48V 30Ah even possible in a Hailong battery case? (G80 21700 cells).

[addertooth]

Well, one is born every minute; I fear I have been "reborn" (again).
I was looking at multiple different listings for a 48 Volt 30 Amp Hour batteries in a Hailong slide-in locking case.
They all claim to be using Panasonic 21700 cells (A grade).
It was added to my watch list on eBay.

I got an "offer" at a reduced price, and bit into what is probably a rotten apple.
Afterwards, I did the math, and saw that Panasonic's top 21700 Cells are only 5 Amp Hour capacity.
So unless the 16 (13) Series pack is also with 6 in Parallel (16S 6P), there is no way their claim could be true.
That would also be a whopping 96 (78) cells fit in that case, which seems rather impossible.

The only thing that could work would be if a Higher Capacity Panasonic 21700 cell existed.
In theory, a 16S (13) 4P could work, if the cells are 7.5 AH; but I found no such cells listed anywhere.

I probably got rooked.

 

[James340]

Well, one is born every minute; I fear I have been "reborn" (again).
I was looking at multiple different listings for a 48 Volt 30 Amp Hour batteries in a Hailong slide-in locking case.
They all claim to be using Panasonic 21700 cells (A grade).
It was added to my watch list on eBay.

I got an "offer" at a reduced price, and bit into what is probably a rotten apple.
Afterwards, I did the math, and saw that Panasonic's top 21700 batteries are only 5 Amp Hour capacity.
So unless the 16 Series pack is also with 6 in Parallel (16S 6P), there is no way their claim could be true.
That would also be a whopping 96 cells fit in that case, which seems rather impossible.

The only thing that could work would be if a Higher Capacity Panasonic 21700 cell existed.
In theory, a 16S 4P could work, if the cells are 7.5 AH; but I found no such cells listed anywhere.

I probably got rooked.

48 volt is 13s.Not 16s.I think the larger cases hold can hold enough cells to get 30ah.I have a 48 volt 14.4ah& it's in the small G56 case

 

[addertooth]

James340,
You are correct. I failed to double check my series string number. So a 13s 5p is possible build. That would still have it at 25 Amp Hours with 5 cells in Parallel at 5 amp hour each. The 21700 batteries are a bit larger than 18650 batteries, and all kits I have seen for that battery seem to be limited to 65 cells.

Now for the bad news: All the G80 cases I have seen for the 21700 battery only has slots for 52 cells. This means I am back to 13s 4p.
With each cell being 5 amp hour, this would mean 20 amp hour at 48v. Just under 1Kwh of capacity.

All of this makes me want to peek inside my alleged 48v 22.4 Ah batteries I have on hand.
I suspect disappointment may await me inside those cases.

 

[James340]

I was going to check if a battery had LG 21700 cell but I was happy with the performance so I didn't.The 13s3p is 7+- pounds and I get 40 miles at 25 miles per hour from PAS level 3 of 5.It is DD hub motor.

 

[addertooth]

Out of my current 22.4 AH battery, I get about 30 miles at 21.1 MPH at PAS 3 (provided I have the front-wheel 1kw motor switch off, and only run on the 1kw motor on the rear.

I was planning to go dual battery, but now after ordering yet another battery, I am entertaining triple battery on this bike. But, with 2Kw total power (if both motors are switched on), having extra capacity is not unsensible.

 

[James340]

Out of my current 22.4 AH battery, I get about 30 miles at 21.1 MPH at PAS 3 (provided I have the front-wheel 1kw motor switch off, and only run on the 1kw motor on the rear.

I was planning to go dual battery, but now after ordering yet another battery, I am entertaining triple battery on this bike. But, with 2Kw total power (if both motors are switched on), having extra capacity is not unsensiblI

 

[James340]

I live rural and ride for exercise and pleasure.I really only use the motor on this bike to escape dogs and trucks.It is a front hub motor so I have 2 wheel drive lol.I have a mid drive motor on the way again with a 14.4ah battery.

 

[addertooth]

I live rural and ride for exercise and pleasure.I really only use the motor on this bike to escape dogs and trucks.It is a front hub motor so I have 2 wheel drive lol.I have a mid drive motor on the way again with a 14.4ah battery.

One of these days I may get a mid-drive bike, just to see how the other half lives. I am mostly running on fairly unhilly areas. So, I would not gain a huge benefit from mid-drive.

I do totally agree on using the second motor when a burst of acceleration is needed.

 

[James340]

One of these days I may get a mid-drive bike, just to see how the other half lives. I am mostly running on fairly unhilly areas. So, I would not gain a huge benefit from mid-drive.

I do totally agree on using the second motor when a burst of acceleration is needed.

I ordered the DD hub from China so it has no restrictions.It goes 35 mph on battery

 

[addertooth]

And now to answer my own question!

The battery, base, charger, some cables and mounting stuff arrived.
The battery (without the base which mounts to the bike frame) weighed in at 9.4 pounds.
This is 1.8 pounds lighter than a verified 48V 22.4 Ah SMLRO battery. This surprised me.
I knew that unless dark magic was in play, it was unlikely a battery which was 1.8 pounds lighter could deliver 7.6 MORE Amp hour of capacity.

The battery was disassembled and inspected.
The battery was a 13s4p battery. (13 groups in series of 4 parallel batteries).
Each of the batteries were labelled Samsung 21700 -50E. Which have "roughly" 5 Amp hour of capacity per cell.
So, the math, 4 in parallel at 5 Amps each = Roughly 20 Amp hour of capacity. The actual value is slightly less, as the official specification is only 4.9 Ah per cell is guaranteed.
With 13 of these groups of 4 in series, this makes it a 48 Volt pack.

Total cell count is 13 X 4, or 52 Cells. This was the maximum the Hailong case will hold of the larger 21700 sized cells.
So no, heck no, 30 Amp hour is not feasible, until an even larger monster case is available for an additional twenty-six 21700 cells.
Should they ever come out with a 7.5 Ah cell, then a 48V 30Ah battery in a current Hailong case could become a reality.

If you see any 30 Ah 48 V packs in a Hailong case being advertised, I suggest you ask the seller about their return policies.
I have already sent an inquiry to the eBay seller.

The BMS and charge balancer is 5 Amps max charge current, 35 Amps maximum draw from the battery.
The seller's listing showed the BMS as being 30 amp, so I guess that specification was under-rated.

Picture attached of the side of the spot-welded connections. Batteries are clearly paralleled in groups of 4.
Picture of the Samsung Cell. I normally see this battery with a different color of shrink wrap. I hope it isn't a fake too.

 

[James340]

UPP has a "triangle"battery.13s 6p 21700 Samsung cell 14+ pounds.I believe it is claimed 28 ah.Not affiliated just like the product.I take advantage of the AliExpress 11/11.

 

[addertooth]

UPP has a "triangle"battery.13s 6p 21700 Samsung cell 14+ pounds.I believe it is claimed 28 ah.Not affiliated just like the product.I take advantage of the AliExpress 11/11.

Yes, with 13S6P, those are numbers I can believe. That would be a whopping 78 cells in a pack. The reason why I caution on the Hailong pack is the lack of volume to hold 78 cells, and thus, it cannot achieve much more than 20 Ah with 21700 cells. It is possible you might get a higher power density with smaller 18650 cells, but I would have to do the math on that.

 

[addertooth]

Well, I wrote the eBay seller, and told him what I found. He made two initial offers:

1. A partial refund of $60 and keep the battery.
2. Ship it back for a full refund of $380.00 (unclear if I would get the tax back too).

I asked to ship it back for a full refund.

Shortly thereafter he made a third offer:
3. A partial refund of $100 and keep the battery.

This puts it in the price range of a 20 Ah battery. I had the advantage of disassembling and verifying it is REALLY 20 Ah, which puts it ahead of any eBay battery advertised as 20 Ah. Believe it or not, some sellers exaggerate the specifications on the batteries they sell.

I decided to take the third offer. Looks like I am keeping it.

 

[James340]

Well, I wrote the eBay seller, and told him what I found. He made two initial offers:

1. A partial refund of $60 and keep the battery.
2. Ship it back for a full refund of $380.00 (unclear if I would get the tax back too).

I asked to ship it back for a full refund.

Shortly thereafter he made a third offer:
3. A partial refund of $100 and keep the battery.

This puts it in the price range of a 20 Ah battery. I had the advantage of disassembling and verifying it is REALLY 20 Ah, which puts it ahead of any eBay battery advertised as 20 Ah. Believe it or not, some sellers exaggerate the specifications on the batteries they sell.

I decided to take the third offer. Looks like I am keeping it.

Have you ever bought from "Liitokala factory store"?I have a 36 volt "25" ah 21700 10s5 p on the way.

 

[addertooth]

Have you ever bought from "Liitokala factory store"?I have a 36 volt "25" ah 21700 10s5 p on the way.

No, I have bought a battery directly from SMLRO (eBay store), it appears to be genuine. The 48V 30Ah battery was bought from an eBay seller, who specifications matched many other sellers. I now know those specifications cannot be met in a case the size which is sold. They are all selling a product which cannot meet the specifications in their listings.

I am an Engineer by trade. My motto is "Trust but verify" when it comes to any purchase. Sometimes you can get great deals, but also you can get crushed if you are unwary. But, assuming your battery is a 21700 Panasonic/LG 5Ah cell, it is possible to put it in a Hailong pack, which holds 52 cells of the 21700 type. Keep in mind, that is only if they are top-spec 21700 cells. Some 21700 cells are only 3400mAh (3.4Ah). In that case, it is not possible for them to be put in a Hailong pack and meet the rated value.

 

[James340]

No, I have bought a battery directly from SMLRO (eBay store), it appears to be genuine. The 48V 30Ah battery was bought from an eBay seller, who specifications matched many other sellers. I now know those specifications cannot be met in a case the size which is sold. They are all selling a product which cannot meet the specifications in their listings.

I am an Engineer by trade. My motto is "Trust but verify" when it comes to any purchase. Sometimes you can get great deals, but also you can get crushed if you are unwary. But, assuming your battery is a 21700 Panasonic/LG 5Ah cell, it is possible to put it in a Hailong pack, which holds 52 cells of the 21700 type. Keep in mind, that is only if they are top-spec 21700 cells. Some 21700 cells are only 3400mAh (3.4Ah). In that case, it is not possible for them to be put in a Hailong pack and meet the rated value.

This is a PVC/shrink wrap pack.The bicycle had a proprietary battery.

 

[addertooth]

You can still get it the "back door way".
Charging time to recharge from dead, is a good metric too. If it is supposed to be a 15Ah battery, but recharged in less than 5 hours on a 3 Amp charger, then they overstated the capacity of the battery (or 7.5 hours on a 2 Amp charger).

I happen to know that Hobby shops sell shrink wrap in a roll called "Monokote". I could cut into a pack, and re-wrap it, if the need existed.
Weight also gives a clue too. It requires a certain amount of cells to produce 36V at 15Ah. If the cell is below that weight threshold, I know there may be a problem. Low weight for a given capacity was the clue that triggered me to disassemble by battery.

 

[fabbrisd]

Thanks for the report - you have shown the fact is this eBike Space does not have standardized test/re-test specifications. Be careful that your enthusiasm overwhelms your testing results - small example : stated .5hrs/2amp charger = does in general mean 4.9hrs/3amp charger.

You are very fortunate - or persuasive - or both - "Almost All" suppliers will void any warranty or return priviledge if the consumer opens the battery case.

Again many thanks for the report !

 

[addertooth]

Thanks for the report - you have shown the fact is this eBike Space does not have standardized test/re-test specifications. Be careful that your enthusiasm overwhelms your testing results - small example : stated .5hrs/2amp charger = does in general mean 4.9hrs/3amp charger.

You are very fortunate - or persuasive - or both - "Almost All" suppliers will void any warranty or return priviledge if the consumer opens the battery case.

Again many thanks for the report !

I believe I said **SEVEN**.5hrs/2amp charger does in general mean 4.9hrs/3amp charger. To be perfect, it would be 5hrs/3amp, but this is an inferred value. It makes the assumption the battery is behaving correctly in a constant voltage constant current fashion (Which is how Lithium Ion batteries like to be charged).

To pick nits, we can add to it the charging cycle is only about 90 percent efficient in most circumstances, and many BMS systems are a bit conservative, and tend to cut you off before the fully discharged point.

However, these are meant to be approximate/ballpark statements which are used to catch obvious frauds with battery ratings. If they don't do AT LEAST that level, they are for sure in "significant error". In my case, the error was more than 33 percent in Ah ratings.

But I agree about being lucky. I was fortunate the weight of the battery was so obviously off, this created the justification to do a deeper inspection. According to his sales, several people had also bought this pack unknowingly. They didn't seem to notice the pack's capacity was far less than the rating.

If I get bored some day, I may make a pass-through Ah totalizer, which tracks how many Amp hours a battery has put out since the last full charge. This would be less invasive, and be equally persuasive, assuming the other person trusts the engineering. But, the absolute proof will always be 4 batteries in parallel, which are only rated at 4.9-5.0 Amp hour of capacity each. That one last bit is just inarguable.

 

[brattmann]

No, I have bought a battery directly from SMLRO (eBay store), it appears to be genuine. The 48V 30Ah battery was bought from an eBay seller, who specifications matched many other sellers. I now know those specifications cannot be met in a case the size which is sold. They are all selling a product which cannot meet the specifications in their listings.

I am an Engineer by trade. My motto is "Trust but verify" when it comes to any purchase. Sometimes you can get great deals, but also you can get crushed if you are unwary. But, assuming your battery is a 21700 Panasonic/LG 5Ah cell, it is possible to put it in a Hailong pack, which holds 52 cells of the 21700 type. Keep in mind, that is only if they are top-spec 21700 cells. Some 21700 cells are only 3400mAh (3.4Ah). In that case, it is not possible for them to be put in a Hailong pack and meet the rated value.

I have bought thru lito and they have been a very good company and I trust them. Bought several batteries, most recent was a 52V 20 AH and was true to spec with 21700 battery.