I would recommend going with something with a Bafang Ultra M620. Jone's is over priced and outdated with a BBSHD that has a cadence sensor. Check what Frey has to offer. https://www.frey.bike/pages/savannah A Frey is less and you get a lot more.
Recommendation for "commuter" bike for mountainous area
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"A"
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$1700 for dual battery, cargo weight capacity, able to climb.. I think it's a no-brainer for the price.
Maybe be not practical for "commuter" since cargo bike takes up large spaces for parking.
BTW, lack of suspension is due to cargo carrying capacity, not many suspension fork can handle weight difference between loaded & unloaded.
Rigid fork keeps the handling characteristics consistent between loaded & unloaded.
Personally, I went with Alibaba and bought a compact cargo ebike with dual battery for my commutes.
750w hub motor for under $1600 shipped to my driveway.
Maybe be not practical for "commuter" since cargo bike takes up large spaces for parking.
BTW, lack of suspension is due to cargo carrying capacity, not many suspension fork can handle weight difference between loaded & unloaded.
Rigid fork keeps the handling characteristics consistent between loaded & unloaded.
Personally, I went with Alibaba and bought a compact cargo ebike with dual battery for my commutes.
750w hub motor for under $1600 shipped to my driveway.
Smaug
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Ariel Rider Grizzly (2WD, fatbike dual battery) is the only one that’s going to prevent the sweaty mess thing.
Even that will likely require your 100 W of effort from time to time.
Even that will likely require your 100 W of effort from time to time.
Yes it can climb. But only at 5mph. Something with a Bafang Ultra would blast up it at 15+mph.
I watched a 350 pound guy ride up a very very steep hill on a Grizzly last weekend. He did not peddle at all. They sure can climb. Only down side. It is not really an ebike. It is a e-moped. But they do not check that around here.
"A"
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And how many times have you had to climb at 5 mph during your commute to state that as a fact? can you give an honest answer?
Does it justify spending hundreds if not thousands more for a Bafang Ultra equipped ebike that would go up the same hill at 15 mph?
If not pedaling up hill is your sole purpose for riding an ebike, sure spend that much more for the extra power output.
Plenty of other cyclist just need help pedaling up a hill, not just cruise up hills with twist of throttle.
What's "around here" anyway?
m@Robertson
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Lets not get carried away here. Its one thing to be a fan of a bike (I like the Lectric A LOT myself) but its another thing to genuinely assess the ability of a work bike to do work.
The Lectric cargo bike is impressive in its hill climbing ability, but it is not magic. If you take a geared hub motor and put it inside of a 20" wheel, the torque advantage you get from that small wheel is enough to acceptably offset the inherent disadvantage a hub motor has (powering a wheel singlespeed and unable to use the gears).
Part of it not being magic is it does not undo the weakness of a singlespeed hub motor with a 48v battery behind it climbing a hill. I have seen the videos of the Lectric bike doing a hill climb, including the one where it goes up the steepest street in LA (Eldred), which is the 3rd steepest street in the whole USA. It made it up, but only barely, and the rider was panting at the top from putting in his own effort to force his way up. Now... he got up the hill. Thats saying something. But he didn't do it well and he sure as hell didn't do it with a cargo load. Nobody has video'd that and for good reason: You can't. Nor should you expect to. The use of a hub motor is a cost saving measure but it is not a choice you would make if you want the robust solution.
You don't need an expensive Ultra to get there. A simple BBSHD or BBS02 will do it. An easy conversion for a regular bike, and relatively affordable. This one below can climb anything, and part of that is because of its 36T front chainring and maxes at 46T rear. That is a mechanical advantage a hub motor can never hope to approach let alone match.
Last weekend, first on Saturday and then again on Sunday, I carried 100 lbs of gravel up over the steepest incline in the Monterey Bay area. Pedal-assisted speed for much of it was 18mph which I backed off as I don't want to break a bike that is over its 400 lb total system weight threshold (this is another mid+hub 2wd, with serious gearing for hills). The only way that job gets done is with a mid drive. If you have a hub motor, you would have to ride up empty.
The Lectric cargo bike is impressive in its hill climbing ability, but it is not magic. If you take a geared hub motor and put it inside of a 20" wheel, the torque advantage you get from that small wheel is enough to acceptably offset the inherent disadvantage a hub motor has (powering a wheel singlespeed and unable to use the gears).
Part of it not being magic is it does not undo the weakness of a singlespeed hub motor with a 48v battery behind it climbing a hill. I have seen the videos of the Lectric bike doing a hill climb, including the one where it goes up the steepest street in LA (Eldred), which is the 3rd steepest street in the whole USA. It made it up, but only barely, and the rider was panting at the top from putting in his own effort to force his way up. Now... he got up the hill. Thats saying something. But he didn't do it well and he sure as hell didn't do it with a cargo load. Nobody has video'd that and for good reason: You can't. Nor should you expect to. The use of a hub motor is a cost saving measure but it is not a choice you would make if you want the robust solution.
You don't need an expensive Ultra to get there. A simple BBSHD or BBS02 will do it. An easy conversion for a regular bike, and relatively affordable. This one below can climb anything, and part of that is because of its 36T front chainring and maxes at 46T rear. That is a mechanical advantage a hub motor can never hope to approach let alone match.
The twin hub motors will still be out of their league. I have literally been there and done that and had to build my way out of the problem with a 2wd bike that had a mid drive in the rear, instead of a hub motor. A 2wd geared hub will definitely help but you'll kill them eventually and the bike will still not be anywhere near as good of a performer. You can't overcome the single-speed limitation.
Last weekend, first on Saturday and then again on Sunday, I carried 100 lbs of gravel up over the steepest incline in the Monterey Bay area. Pedal-assisted speed for much of it was 18mph which I backed off as I don't want to break a bike that is over its 400 lb total system weight threshold (this is another mid+hub 2wd, with serious gearing for hills). The only way that job gets done is with a mid drive. If you have a hub motor, you would have to ride up empty.
m@Robertson
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the Frey CC (the Cross Country step thru... they have changed the name in recent years) is an awesome deal. Put some XC tires on it for the muddy roads and it would be excellent. Over the years I have had to resist the temptation to buy that bike.
I disagree on the BBSHD being outdated. Another take on it would be that it is tried, tested and in extremely wide use, has DIY and how-to service videos and writeups literally everywhere and has unequalled 3rd-party parts and upgrade support. Also nobody should ever ride one of those motors without digging into its somewhat opaque but powerful settings interface. You will totally change the character of that motor, which will include a significant increase in range once you dial back the way-overdone pedal assist that comes from the factory (and literally ruins the riding experience). This is just one of those how-to's geared to enhancing pedal assist and full-disclosure: I wrote it.
BBSHD Programming For The Pedaling Cyclist
(But Not For The Throttler) There is a follow-on to this article that tinkers with these settings a bit further. In August 2023 I published another update that passed along what I’m doing dif…
talesontwowheels.com
My follow-on article linked on that page yields pedal assist output that peaks at around 450w... thats on a motor that normally puts out 1750 or so peak (which is still available if you care to hit the throttle). But the mild pedal assist with cutbacks related to both high cadence and motor speed makes for what is essentially a normal bicycle experience.
Your hills and weight are nearly identical to where I ride for some fun.
My wife's stock Bafang 750 MD (I ride from time to time) on full power + pedaling in low gears is barely able to climb up with me on it compared to my stock Bafang 1000w MD.
Going up 20%+ grade hills hills, the speed difference is about 5-7 mph between the two platforms.
Personally, I don't trust the stock 750 internal plastic gears for repeated abuse like that (with that weight), along with all of the heat you generate pushing the smaller motor.
My 1000w might be much louder over the 750, but it eats up hills with minimal effort with little concern turning the gears to peanut butter
My wife's stock Bafang 750 MD (I ride from time to time) on full power + pedaling in low gears is barely able to climb up with me on it compared to my stock Bafang 1000w MD.
Going up 20%+ grade hills hills, the speed difference is about 5-7 mph between the two platforms.
Personally, I don't trust the stock 750 internal plastic gears for repeated abuse like that (with that weight), along with all of the heat you generate pushing the smaller motor.
My 1000w might be much louder over the 750, but it eats up hills with minimal effort with little concern turning the gears to peanut butter
It depends on your fitness level. Someone who is 20-30 lbs overweight with spindly legs is going to need twice as much power from the e-bike's motor as a person who is not overweight and has been an active bicyclist with good leg muscle strength and endurance.
The Specialized Turbo Vado base level e-bike provides 70 Nm of torque and uses 250W from the battery pack. It has a 48t front chainring and a 11-speed 11-42t rear cassette. Read the reviews by owners and you will quickly see that it is more than adequate for pedaling up hills.
My first e-bike weighed 70 lbs and it took a great deal of the motor's power to move the bike as compared to my replacement e-bike that weighs less than 27 lbs. It takes a lot of power to move a 43 lb heavier bike with fat tires up any incline.
The Specialized Turbo Vado base level e-bike provides 70 Nm of torque and uses 250W from the battery pack. It has a 48t front chainring and a 11-speed 11-42t rear cassette. Read the reviews by owners and you will quickly see that it is more than adequate for pedaling up hills.
My first e-bike weighed 70 lbs and it took a great deal of the motor's power to move the bike as compared to my replacement e-bike that weighs less than 27 lbs. It takes a lot of power to move a 43 lb heavier bike with fat tires up any incline.
Just watched the above video, and this guy claims hub motors are vastly harder on spokes than a mid drive. I'm still scratching my head on that one (diplomatic way of saying I doubt he is right) . Both the hub motor and a mid drove motor will surely be exerting the exact same force on the spokes pushing the bike along at the same speed. The motor on the mid drive will be doing less work (because of the gearing), but surely the loads on the spoke ends at both the hub and rim will be identical???
Anyone like to comment.
P.S. My 750W rear hub Chinese internet buy drives up hills WAY easier than my way more expensive 'brand' mid drive. No they are not apples v apples comparisons voltage and power wise. My point being people shouldn't just assume because its a mid drive bike it will go up hills better.
"A"
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For majority of cyclists, hub-motor ebikes are plenty capable and suitable, even in hilly terrain.
Hub-drive ebikes likely to cost hundreds if not thousands less than mid-drive ebikes & likely require less maintenance and less cost for additional drivetrain wear & tear.
When deciding between the difference, one only need to ask yourself, do you really need to spend hundreds if not thousands more for the performance difference between the two?
Is it worth the extra cost for the dependency also wear & tear on the drivetrain of a mid-drive ebike?
If this is a "commuter" as threat title, do you want an expensive ebike to attract theft or just a cheap, dependable & capable ebike that you can walk away locked without worry of being stolen?
Hub-drive ebikes likely to cost hundreds if not thousands less than mid-drive ebikes & likely require less maintenance and less cost for additional drivetrain wear & tear.
When deciding between the difference, one only need to ask yourself, do you really need to spend hundreds if not thousands more for the performance difference between the two?
Is it worth the extra cost for the dependency also wear & tear on the drivetrain of a mid-drive ebike?
If this is a "commuter" as threat title, do you want an expensive ebike to attract theft or just a cheap, dependable & capable ebike that you can walk away locked without worry of being stolen?
m@Robertson
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oh come on its not that bad.
Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. For hub motors, the weakness is hills and it is easy for the layman to understand why: No gears. The OP wants a bike that handles hills well. A mid drive will. A hub is a definite maybe. Personal preferences aside, its the right thing to do to recommend the choice that is known not to be marginal. Especially to someone who doesn't know one way or another and is depending on answers to guide an expensive purchase.
Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. For hub motors, the weakness is hills and it is easy for the layman to understand why: No gears. The OP wants a bike that handles hills well. A mid drive will. A hub is a definite maybe. Personal preferences aside, its the right thing to do to recommend the choice that is known not to be marginal. Especially to someone who doesn't know one way or another and is depending on answers to guide an expensive purchase.
"A"
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Hub-drive ebike can still have 7-speed rear freewheel, that's not: No gears, do you disagree?
If you are constantly climbing hills & running out of gears to shift into with a 7-speed rear freewheel, more than likely you need a different ebike than just a regular "commuter".
Personal preferences aside, honestly; you don't think that majority of "commuters" could be better off spending less money on a capable hub-motor ebike?
Especially for someone who doesn't know one way or another, plopping down $3-$4k for a decent mid-drive only to find out later that a $1.5K hub-drive ebike is likely just as capable.
If you are constantly climbing hills & running out of gears to shift into with a 7-speed rear freewheel, more than likely you need a different ebike than just a regular "commuter".
Personal preferences aside, honestly; you don't think that majority of "commuters" could be better off spending less money on a capable hub-motor ebike?
Especially for someone who doesn't know one way or another, plopping down $3-$4k for a decent mid-drive only to find out later that a $1.5K hub-drive ebike is likely just as capable.
Smaug
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He is talking about the electric motor taking advantage of the chain & sprockets' leverage, rather than driving the wheel directly.
Sometimes, that large sprocket on the rear is just not enough. On my old heybike Ranger, for example. It was a 72 lb. folding bike with a 500 W hub motor. When the battery died, it didn't take a big hill to reduce me to walking, much less a mountainous area. When I went up hills on that bike, that motor was working HARD. On my smallish hills, it's short term, but in a hilly or mountainous area, it's a different ballgame. You're in NYC, I'm in SE WI. It's not like Colorado or San Francisco, for example. Hub motors are fine for me, but if I was in SF, I bet it would burn out in short order.
One thing they can do is to gear hub motors for torque rather than speed, but everyone thinks they want to go at least 27 mph these days. Example: my Lectric XP Lite only has a 350 W hub motor, however, it's geared for only 20 mph, so it's a lot more torquey than one would initially think. It was a smart design, because its only mechanical gear is about right for 15-16 mph. Faster than 20 mph and you're definitely all electric. May as well gear it for torque, so a fellow can get up a hill, even with that rather tall mechanical gearing.
I absolutely agree. But our OP here may not be in that majority, if he lives in a hilly/mountainous city.
Yep.
Smaug
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Re-posting this snippet from the OP just to remind "A" that we're not talking about what I would call a "typical commute". ;-)
My own commute home has MAYBE 50' of climbing over 2 miles. That's probably shorter than typical. The ride in is mostly a mild downhill; I don't need electric to maintain 13 mph on it.
m@Robertson
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Yes exactly. The advice has to be thought through with what the OP has already told us the bike has to live with. He's the one who is going to spend a lot of money that can't be unspent if the advice given is bad.
I put over 6600 miles on a hub-powered commuter bike that I still own. Its predecessor had over 4000 miles on it before I cracked the frame. It was hub powered too. But that was when I was riding exclusively in the flat California Central Valley in and around Fresno and Clovis. So its not like I am a hub motor hater (I still use them in fact although the bikes are 2wd and the hub motor is in the front).
Gotta pick the right tool for the job.
