Production Ebike vs Kit with Torque Sensor?

profk

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I am 61 years old 5'9 with a small instep (29 pants length) and carrying too much weight (230 lbs). I used to love biking and want to get back into it to both lose weight and builds my cardio strength. My primary use is commuting and I dont need to go really fast but I do need tio climb some significant hills.

I have a second hand ebike right now (a 250 watt sixthreezero. I basically like it with the following issues/concerns..

(1) There is a hill on my commute path that is short but very steep (maybe as much as 30 degrees). The sixthree zero motor cannot handle lit and I have to get off and walk it..
(2) Its heavy (60 pounds.) It has oversized steel tubing for its frame that also makes it harder to mount accessories.
(3) Its a speed sensor and I understand that torque sensors are better for exercising.
(4) It wasnt sized for me and is hard to get on and off.

I think Id like a torque sensor and at least 500W. Does that sound right?
I have 30 year old bike that was sized to me when I bought it and is in great shape. I was strongly considering a conversion kit, but it seems like torque sensative kits are at least as expensive as an Aventon on sale. Also the least expensive of the torque kits (Tongshen) have reported maintenance issues.

I want reliability, Id like less weight. Price point is very important. What would you recommend?
 
What's your budget and how far is your commute?

Do you prefer upright or a more leaned forward riding posture?

I have an Aventon Level.2, and it is a great bike, but also 65 lbs. That kind of goes along with having a 500 W+ motor and a battery with decent range. It's more leaned forward than I like, so I replaced the stem with an adjustable one. You can find my review thread on it in the Commuters subforum here.

The torque sensor does indeed make it feel more natural and it is also more energy efficient, but cadence sensors have come a long way too. You can set those up to provide more or less assistance when the power kicks in.

Aventon Soltera.2 is a good buy at $1k. It's less powerful, with only a 350 W motor, and with only a 36 V battery, but it also is carrying 20 lbs. less weight. On the other hand, since it is Class 2, (20 mph max assisted speed) the hub motor is likely geared lower than my Level.2 so it may climb just as well.

A lot of the bikes you'll find with more powerful motors are much bigger and heavier, which counters the power to some extent. What you really want for that hill is a mid drive, so the motor can take advantage of the bike's gearing, instead of the single gear ratio built into a hub motor.

As you lose weight and your legs get stronger, the climbing will get easier.

Don't forget diet too. If you can eat less processed carbs and eat less calorie-dense foods, that will help even more than the exercise.

If you're handy, you can probably get some pointers on converting your old bike to a mid drive from @m@Robertson.
 
Looking at a mid-drive, it seems from my reading my choice is Bafang which is reliable, Tongshen(which has issues) or a Cyc Proton (which is expensive.). Realistically my choice is probably either the Aventon or the Bafang conversion. The Aventon is a nice price point but I think you have convinced me that mid mounting is more important if I have to choose between that and torque sensing.

Id love to hear some experience with the Bafang, good or bad?
 
BBSHD is nice. Here is a conversion done on a cheap 400 dollar bike from a bike shop.
This is a Luna BBSHD with a Ludi (i think v1) upgrade controller (HotRod settings). For my use i could have gotten away with just the
Luna BBSHD with normal controller.

https://ebikesforum.com/media/2804-e9f85fcecd3868eac79f5974dc84d03a-jpg.3074/
https://ebikesforum.com/data/xfmg/thumbnail/1/1436-aadb0fc7c90ad58a7911d8d9b1242b00.jpg?1647910192
Nice and clean. The thing is on a 52v battery system and i've rode it over 100 miles one charge.
It's set to only go 22mph and i have to pedal all the time 'cuz it's a cadence sensor, but with it this way i get exercise or i can use throttle if i break my legs or sumthin :)

Set right this thing will climb chain link fences.
Also set right, for a low and slow roll, this thing will last forever.

We'll have some others chime in for ya and you'll see what people think .. most have done and are happy :)

Welcome to the forums, by the way! :cool:
 
One thing you might consider is changing the rear gearing. Fairly easy to do, doesn't cost much and you might get some more use out of the bike you have.

Most of the 7-speed setups seem to come with a 14-28 tooth sprocket set, but you can get 11-32 and even 11-34. The 11 tooth will get you a bit more top speed and also make you work a bit harder, while the 32 or 34 tooth will get you up hills with less effort.

Just be advised there are two ways the rear sprocket set mounts to the motor, freewheel and cassette. The freewheel threads onto the motor, where the cassette slides onto a splined shaft. If you do it, make sure to get the right one for your motor.

https://bicyclewarehouse.com/collections/bike-cassettes-freewheels
 
Id love to hear some experience with the Bafang, good or bad?
The Bafang motors are far and away the most-manufactured mid drives on the planet, with a 10-year production run scheduled to change in 2025 to CAN-bus, which is a whole other story) and millions of them sold worldwide over that decade span. You don't see those kinds of numbers in the USA but bear in mind the Far East has literally an order of magnitude more ebike sales than the rest of the world combined. Bafang literally is larger than the Bosch's and Shimano's of the world in terms of sheer production volume (For motors. Not bike components).

Despite the smaller footprint in the USA, they own the lion's share of the DIY market here. Get on Youtube and the internet and try to find some DIY advice on Bafang mid drive motors and you should see more than plenty of thorough, start-to-finish install and service vids. Reality is operating at your level you should never need to mess with it, and it is common to hear BBSHD or BBS02 lifetime mileage counts in the many thousands of miles. My main daily driver built in 2021 is pushing 5000 miles. My secondary one that is now getting the lion's share of errands and commutes is at about 2500 miles; I put it into service in Feb 2023.

You mentioned Tongsheng, which is primarily the TSDZ2, which has been on the market for quite some time, and now the TSDZ8. Tongsheng is essentially the Avis of the DIY motor market. They are number 2 but its a distant #2 in terms of installed volume. I don't know if I would say they have reliability issues. Sure the blue gear gives some people fits but I think overall they are largely reliable. But your available pool of aftermarket parts suppliers is tiny by comparison, as is volunteer and aftermarket support. Its there, but I would not want to be a beginning DIY biker and make this my first build.

You also mentioned the 'Proton' and you actually mean the Photon (the Proton is the bigger brother that was never released and may in fact be cancelled at this point). As in the Cyc Photon. You are correct it is a pricey little bugger at about US$1000 before you get to the battery. This is the one I would tag as having maintenance issues, which is something that Cyc has historically been challenged with on the X1 Pro, the Stealth and now the Photon. Long story, that and I'll skip the details. This is another product I would not make my introduction to ebike building with.

I work from home now, but I commuted on an ebike for many years. I know you have to have reliability, and for that I would do a Bafang. I would make it a BBSHD, which is probably more motor than you need, but also its a motor whose power you can dial back. A motor that idles or runs at 20% versus running flat out is going to last forever, trouble-free. Its more expensive, and heavier too. I'd still do the HD so I can have that reliability, aftermarket parts and community support.

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And don't even think of a hub motor conversion, or trying to somehow spiff what you have. What has happened to you here is pretty common: you have run face-first into the reality of hub motors: They power from the axle. So they are single-speed. So they are out of their element in steep hills. In fact only YOU can utilize the drivetrain on a hub motor bike so whatever you get out of pedaling is what your muscles can grunt out. The motor will bog just like your legs do trying to grunt up a hill on a high gear. A mid on the other hand can take advantage of a downshift just like your legs do, and thus you already understand its inherent advantage. This is why hub motors are ideal for flat land or low rolling hills, and out of their element on steep hills. You can, btw, extend the efficacy of a hub motor into steeper territory with a smaller wheel, which gives a torque advantage and helps explain in part why so many 20" small-tire ebikes exist.
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There are separate issues with cadence. As @Smaug has noted, cadence sensing is a whole different animal when you dig into a mid drive, and the Bafang motors in particular can be configured easily to be ideal for cyclists... but the process is counterintuitive. Plus the cadence sensing that comes from the Bafang factory is... horrible. But you can change all that and its easy to do. Here's a tutorial on exactly what to do, written by Yours Truly.

https://talesontwowheels.com/2023/08/09/bbshd-settings-for-a-pedaling-cyclist-2023-edition/
Both the Tongsheng and Cyc motors have customizability in this regard as well. So do the ToSeven motors but they are new in the marketplace and I would let some other pioneer take the arrows in the back on them. Come back in two years and see if the bugs have been shaken out by then (its been 2 yrs with the Photon and they still aren't all gone).

There are other things to be aware of, and do smart versus internet-dumb (plenty of bad advice online whether you ask for it or not). Would not be a terrible idea to let us know what kind of bike you are thinking of converting, but you can also look at a ground-up tutorial on the subject that gets into frame choices. Just because it says 'from scratch' doesn't mean you can't use what you already have as your donor. The bike that is the subject of the series below was destined for scrap and given new life. Fork and frame came from 1999 and 2000.

https://talesontwowheels.com/2022/04/27/how-to-build-an-ebike-from-scratch/
 
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