Lost trying to get into E-Bikes, so many options, looking for guidance

[m@Robertson]

I’m fairly new to e bikes and I’m in the market for a new one and it definitely seems like a give and take in a lot of aspects. And what I’m looking for doesn’t seem to exist. You can check my most recent post in general discussion. made it earlier today, it’s got all the info there but what I’m really wanting is a fat tire E Bike that has long range and full suspension that I can put a rack on to carry my 60 pound son around on for 22 miles a day. I want him comfortable but fat tires don’t have good range. Because im trying to full throttle it at at least 28mph for those 22 miles. And im not talking about needing crazy range but seriously where are all the fat tire e-bikes with like at least 40Ah ?? With full suspension??

Its a niche market that is so niche, they don't really exist. My bench is pretty deep when it comes to experience with fat bikes. I built mine myself frame-up.

And of course lets not forget this one, which I still ride:

Full suspension fatties do exist in the marketplace now. But if you want to be carrying a 60 lb load (and that kid is going to grow bigger and heavier, I assume) you are going to run face first into an unfortunate reality: You are already up against a weight limit vis-a-vis the rear shock. A quality Rockshox Monarch has a total rider limit of 250 lbs (thats rider plus gear). This comes from the Rockshox guidance of 1 psi per 1 lb of load, subject to a max pressure of 250 psi.

So... it gets real easy to hit that 250 lb limit when you have a passenger. Same goes for ANY shock. If you are building your own bike you can fudge this by doing a Rockshox coil shock and then putting on the most badass coil option they have (your bike shop will have to do it). I put a 550 lb spring on my Guerilla Gravity Smash to deal with my at-the-time 265 lb weight, and I believe they make stronger ones than that. But thats like a $500 shock.

How does the Ecells bike then get away with their claimed 400 lb carry capacity? Simple answer is they don't. The advertising is BS. See that longtail above? I have personally loaded those rear bags to their full capacity with four 36 pak soda cans for a 125 lb cargo load. 125 lbs plus my 265 lbs plus lets call it another 110 lbs of bike and bike lock (2-meters of 13mm boron steel chain plus the biggest U lock you have ever seen) puts my total system weight at 500 lbs. A bike that heavy is almost unrideable. And a full suspension bike - with a normal wheelbase - whose suspension is already compressed hard from a rider and passenger is going to be out of its league as well.

What you want is a cargo bike. The BFD above is one of those, but its not ideal for carrying passengers even though people do it. The person is high up and that makes the bike tippy when stopped and a bit wiggly when riding. HOWEVER, plenty of cargo bike riders do small passengers with longtails. In a truly ideal world, the ideal format is the frontloader. Parents riding bikes like Bullitts, R-M Loads etc. love the ability to see and converse with their child, who is sitting in the box in front of the rider. Also the load/cargo/child is low and centered, so there is zero penalty in balance. The only way you know you have a big heavy load on the bike is via inertia making itself known while braking.

And the longer frame flexes so you stay comfortable. Even the aluminum framed examples. This is also true of the longtail.

I would abandon your idea of a FS fatbike and instead pivot to a cargo bike. What you want to do is what those bikes are made for.

Mid Tail, Long Tail or Front Loader (which cargo bike do I choose)?

I never planned on building three different classes of cargo bike, but I did. What are their strengths and weaknesses?

talesontwowheels.com

 

[Bikerseth]

Its a niche market that is so niche, they don't really exist. My bench is pretty deep when it comes to experience with fat bikes. I built mine myself frame-up.

View attachment 14879

And of course lets not forget this one, which I still ride:

View attachment 14880

Full suspension fatties do exist in the marketplace now. But if you want to be carrying a 60 lb load (and that kid is going to grow bigger and heavier, I assume) you are going to run face first into an unfortunate reality: You are already up against a weight limit vis-a-vis the rear shock. A quality Rockshox Monarch has a total rider limit of 250 lbs (thats rider plus gear). This comes from the Rockshox guidance of 1 psi per 1 lb of load, subject to a max pressure of 250 psi.

So... it gets real easy to hit that 250 lb limit when you have a passenger. Same goes for ANY shock. If you are building your own bike you can fudge this by doing a Rockshox coil shock and then putting on the most badass coil option they have (your bike shop will have to do it). I put a 550 lb spring on my Guerilla Gravity Smash to deal with my at-the-time 265 lb weight, and I believe they make stronger ones than that. But thats like a $500 shock.

How does the Ecells bike then get away with their claimed 400 lb carry capacity? Simple answer is they don't. The advertising is BS. See that longtail above? I have personally loaded those rear bags to their full capacity with four 36 pak soda cans for a 125 lb cargo load. 125 lbs plus my 265 lbs plus lets call it another 110 lbs of bike and bike lock (2-meters of 13mm boron steel chain plus the biggest U lock you have ever seen) puts my total system weight at 500 lbs. A bike that heavy is almost unrideable. And a full suspension bike - with a normal wheelbase - whose suspension is already compressed hard from a rider and passenger is going to be out of its league as well.

What you want is a cargo bike. The BFD above is one of those, but its not ideal for carrying passengers even though people do it. The person is high up and that makes the bike tippy when stopped and a bit wiggly when riding. HOWEVER, plenty of cargo bike riders do small passengers with longtails. In a truly ideal world, the ideal format is the frontloader. Parents riding bikes like Bullitts, R-M Loads etc. love the ability to see and converse with their child, who is sitting in the box in front of the rider. Also the load/cargo/child is low and centered, so there is zero penalty in balance. The only way you know you have a big heavy load on the bike is via inertia making itself known while braking.

And the longer frame flexes so you stay comfortable. Even the aluminum framed examples. This is also true of the longtail.

I would abandon your idea of a FS fatbike and instead pivot to a cargo bike. What you want to do is what those bikes are made for.

Mid Tail, Long Tail or Front Loader (which cargo bike do I choose)?

I never planned on building three different classes of cargo bike, but I did. What are their strengths and weaknesses?

talesontwowheels.com

I had the lectricexpedition and it had no suspension and it was so rigid and rattled our bones loose going over any bumps. That’s what we were using before. It got stolen and it was extremely uncomfortable. He’s going to be riding with me for 22 miles every day so I want him good. I’m 150, he’s like 60lbs. And I only need to do this for 7 more months until I get my license back. So I’m not sure how much he’s gonna to grow in 7months. So 210lbs isn’t much. If you read my most recent post all the info is on there

 

[m@Robertson]

I had the lectricexpedition and it had no suspension and it was so rigid and rattled our bones loose going over any bumps. That’s what we were using before. It got stolen and it was extremely uncomfortable. He’s going to be riding with me for 22 miles every day so I want him good. I’m 150, he’s like 60lbs. And I only need to do this for 7 more months until I get my license back. So I’m not sure how much he’s gonna to grow in 7months. So 210lbs isn’t much. If you read my most recent post all the info is on there

Yeah I just bounced over there and drank all that extra info in. I recommended another Xpedition with a suspension seatpost. all of the capacity issues still exist. A moving bike with 210 lbs of rider is still too much to ask of a FS bike unless you do a custom coil shock like I describe above. The Ecells carry ratings are baloney. I can dig deeper into that but its a whole other novel explaining in detail why, over and above the shock capacity.

And you want to go 28 mph on throttle and thats never going to happen. I said over in the other thread I can do the distance but not the speed, but actually I think I can hit 28 and hold it. But even with 35 ah of 52v pack I don't think I can do a 22 mile round trip flat out like that.

 

[chinnend]

A torque sensor is the way to go for an older person. My trike has a torque sensor and it is very easy to use and has a natural, easy increase in speed when you engage the PAS modes. What I didn’t like about it, is that I was limited to 12.4 MPH. After using the trike for 2 years, I decided to get myself something a bit faster. I was harder up for cash so I decided on a Heybike Mars 2.0. It’s a great bike and the experiences, contrary to others opinions, have been good with customer service. I do like the customizable speeds etc for the bike but it sure does have power and there is nothing gradual about increase in speeds in the different PAS modes. It really takes off. I now tried my friends Aventon torque sensor Sinch bike and that is much closer to my old trike. Wish I would have waited for that one. I’m 68 and have tried quite a few.

 

[m@Robertson]

A torque sensor is the way to go for an older person.

I would say the opposite. The core tenet of a torque sensor is it demands pressure and effort to reward the rider with assistance. If the rider is unable to put force in because they are tired or just need a break, but don't want to pull over, the torque sensor will essentially refuse.

This is especially true for people recovering from an injury, or the permanently disabled. In my case it was heart attacks. On my torque assist bike (A Luna Fixed) I was able to dial up the assist to lessen the problem, but by its nature torque sensing dictated the problem could not be solved.

Now, with that said, cheap bikes have garbage cadence sensors that let the bike run away from you. They are just on/off switches. But a bike set up right can let you just dial down the cadence sensor so you can put effort in and get exercise, or dial it up and ghost pedal if you need a break. The solution to junky cadence sensing is not to shy away from cadence sensor pedal assist. Its to get a bike with a higher quality controller and, I suppose, a test ride is the only way to figure that out.

All KT controllers - which are very popular with manufacturers and DIY builders - do not have this problem. Same goes for the BBSxx line of Bafang mid drives.

 

[addertooth]

I’m fairly new to e bikes and I’m in the market for a new one and it definitely seems like a give and take in a lot of aspects. And what I’m looking for doesn’t seem to exist. You can check my most recent post in general discussion. made it earlier today, it’s got all the info there but what I’m really wanting is a fat tire E Bike that has long range and full suspension that I can put a rack on to carry my 60 pound son around on for 22 miles a day. I want him comfortable but fat tires don’t have good range. Because im trying to full throttle it at at least 28mph for those 22 miles. And im not talking about needing crazy range but seriously where are all the fat tire e-bikes with like at least 40Ah ?? With full suspension??

This bike (link at bottom of this post) has dual rear coilover shocks. Rear shock capacity is up to 500 pounds. The bench seat is almost absurdly long, so riding two up is the sweet spot for this eBike. A second battery option is available for this eBike, for less range anxiety. With the optional second battery pack you will have your desired 40 Amp Hour of battery capacity. It's top speed is well over your desired minimum speed. It uses higher pressure street oriented tires (30 PSI), which gives it a lower rolling resistance. Give it some consideration.

For street use, it comes from the factory with front and rear turn signals, running light, brake light, and a headlamp with high and low beam.

p.s. I have a different (non-two-up) model from this company. The main challenge is their eBikes are in high demand at this point, so waiting period for mine was 2.5 months after ordering. Their bikes are 40+ MPH eBikes, which is why the demand for them is so high. When you are looking for online reviews, be sure you search for the v2 (version 2) of this bike, as it is upgraded from the original model.

Note: Price will go up on July first, to compensate for the increased tariffs for eBikes. This increase in tariffs affect all eBikes. Expect all eBikes to see an increase in price soon, if they have not already bumped up the price.

Billy Goat eBike

 

[m@Robertson]

Add the backrest accessory to that Billygoat for two riders would probably be a good idea. Add your own foam to it with a couple of straps and some bits of a Therma Rest mattress pad.

The way you get around the low torque and singlespeed nature of a hub motor is to pump gobs of power thru it. A 60v system feeding a 110Nm direct drive motor via two factory-blended batteries @ 40ah is the sort of length you have to go to in order to successfully do that. Its wasteful in terms of power needed, and adds a ton of extra weight, but on the flip side it is also maintenance-free, which is why you see for example military e-cycles going this route.

If I was going to do hub motors, no matter what type - DD or geared - I'd still want awd though. Super acceleration and the motors don't even get warm versus too hot to touch after a ride. I have seen a few big-power DD awd builds with big volts and big batteries and they are rockets.

 

[m@Robertson]

Kyle seems to like it.