Lost trying to get into E-Bikes, so many options, looking for guidance

[Cmid02]

@Freddy1 @Smaug @portjon @Hoggdoc. @Snoop (and @m@Robertson , but can't find a way to tag you)

Wow, thank every single one of you for taking the time to help out a beginner. I appreciate every piece of information provided. I will probably have to reread all the comments several times over.

I am still confused on which sensing would be best for our specific use: cadence vs torque; but at least I know the differences, and the trade-offs thanks to you all. (great write up m@robertson, and I wish you many years of good health!)

I still have a lot of catching-up to do in terms of reading the thread, but something @Hoggdoc said jumped out at me. He came out in favor of cadence sensing, which is a recipe for having the local villagers rise up, tie him to a stake and light a match.

Its familiar ground for me as I agree completely: Cadence sensing, when properly tuned (which almost nobody does) can be an outstanding exercise tool, and it is by far my preferred method. Look back to that bike I pictured way back in the early part of this thread. Part of what I was doing when I bought it was seeing if my jaundiced view of torque sensing was fair (I also wanted to try out a belt drive and an IGH for the first time).

Well, torque sensing was every bit as distasteful as I thought it would be, unfortunately. I wrote the following some years ago and I don't take any of it back.

I Hate Ebike Torque-Sensing (maybe you should too)

Well, I don’t actually hate it, but it is a technology rooted in cycling’s past, whose existence was created to market a product to legacy riders.

talesontwowheels.com

Torque sensing is fine if thats what you want out of your ride, but I view it as a holdover from the analog cycling era. Not necessarily 'better'. Its more familiar to new entrants. Also there are apparently cheapo cadence-based controllers that are slow to engage or merely on/off switches. I've never used one but if I did I am sure I'd be just as negative about it.

Worth mentioning is that cadence sensing is not at all the lightning rod in cargo / utility rider circles as it is for recreational riders. Riding a bike that has a job it seems makes for a different perspective.

I can definitely see the merits of a cadence sensor. A torque sensor will still require the rider to exert some force and won't offer any sympathies in the case of exhaustion. I did have two concerns about the cadence sensor however:

1. The lack of variable speed and therefore lack of some control. And maybe I misunderstand, so please let me know if I am. You essentially adjust (do Aventon and Lectric cadence sensors allow for PAS adjustment? If not, that is another worry) the PAS to your desired speeds/cadence. Then select your level of PAS; and when peddling, the bike will speed up to the selected cadence level. So, if the peddle assist level 1 is 6mph, you will travel a constant 6mph until you stop peddling or change PAS level? Not that this is an issue when riding solo, nor a huge issue if riding with someone, but that second person would have to match to travel together. Just another observation; also if you want to travel between two cadence rates, that wouldn't be an option.

2. The second one has to do with:

Most women will be scared when the motor kicks in; it's unexpected the first time and they don't like to get used to new things that take away any control or safety net from them.

Does this also happen with the middrive?

The other arrangement is hub motor drive, which is simpler, and less expensive and a bit less intuitive; when you start to pedal, the motor accelerates you to a speed you've set by the PAS (Power Assist Setting) level in the computer.

The torque sensor, while requiring the rider to exert their own energy to move the bike, won't just kick in and speed the rider up to a marked speed. Therefore a more "natural" feel as the sensor is matching the rider's effort? I believe that the cadence sensor doesn't kick in unless you pedal, so to some extent the rider will be expecting to move, but I do worry a little about that "acceleration" to a speed even if it is slight.

With the added pace control and the lack of a motor acceleration, I might be overthinking this and obviously I'll aim to have her try both, but maybe the torque sensor might be the best option for my wife's situation? I'll have her try the Aventon Soltera, Pace 500 and the Level.2 (torque) to see what she likes best. As always, any critiques would be welcomed.

 

[m@Robertson]

I know almost nothing about any commercially-produced bikes' cadence sensors, but if you want less assist you pick a lower setting, until you have reached a value that is less than effortless. Then you plug in muscle power to work over top of that. Many bikes have a settings interface you can dig into that lets you change the assist given at each level. the Sondors bikes do this, and some models of the popular KT-LCD8H display have this capability built in as well. But this is the sort of thing that is not immediately obvious without doing some googling at the least, and bike manufacturers seem to like to overpower their PAS levels out of the gate.

Cadence PAS generally works like this: Motor power is delivered at X% on Setting 1. X%+ on Setting 2, X%++ on 3, X%+++ on 4 and so on. On the better ones you get higher boost at low speed and low crankarm rpms, and the power dials back when you get up to cruise speed and your cadence increases. KT brand controllers (not something you mess with buying a bike off the rack) call this 'simulated torque assist' and they are very good at it. The underlying characteristic is the assist is variable, but not keyed to muscle effort so if you need a break, you can dial up the assist and let the bike take over, then notch it back until you are comfortable with your exertion level.

Cadence is unlikely to be keyed to mph as you describe. Anything is possible but all of the adjustable PAS I have seen is motor power percentages.

Does this also happen with the middrive?

I saw that comment. Thats like saying men get an erection when there's a burst of power. Just a ridiculous thing to say. Do individual males and females act like big chickens sometimes? Yes. Gender is irrelevant.

Can a motor of any type freak you out? Yes. Is it likely with the kind of motors sold by name brand manufacturers to the general public? No. Especially not the kind of bikes you are looking at. Companies have lawyers and don't want lawsuits.

The torque sensor, while requiring the rider to exert their own energy to move the bike, won't just kick in and speed the rider up to a marked speed.

Chances are this won't happen with either sensor. Lawyers again. Start out in a low PAS level and see what it does. If you start it out on full blast then sure you can overdo it on any sensor type. Don't do that

Therefore a more "natural" feel as the sensor is matching the rider's effort? I believe that the cadence sensor doesn't kick in unless you pedal, so to some extent the rider will be expecting to move, but I do worry a little about that "acceleration" to a speed even if it is slight.

Don't worry about it. This goes to my recommendation that you go to a bike shop and do some riding on real bikes. Questions like this will be set aside within a few minutes of that test ride.

I might be overthinking this

Just ride it and see

 

[neutron]

I almost always start with throttle only. Once the bike is moving and I'm heading in the right direction I start peddling and let the pedal assist take over. Before I start out I set the pedal assist to level 1 or 2 but don't start peddling. The transition from throttle to pedal assist is very smooth with no sudden acceleration. Starting out and crossing an intersection from a dead stop are about the only time I use the throttle. I would not have a bike without throttle.

 

[JethroXP]

I almost always start with throttle only. Once the bike is moving and I'm heading in the right direction I start peddling and let the pedal assist take over. Before I start out I set the pedal assist to level 1 or 2 but don't start peddling. The transition from throttle to pedal assist is very smooth with no sudden acceleration. Starting out and crossing an intersection from a dead stop are about the only time I use the throttle. I would not have a bike without throttle.

100% agree, these are heavy bikes, and that throttle is very useful for quickly crossing a busy intersection or if you find yourself stopped going uphill. A little goose of the throttle is all you need to get going and start pedaling, and it would be a lot harder, and less safe, without one.

 

[m@Robertson]

Yeah its the exact opposite of power efficiency but I don't care I'll do a one or two second blip and thats it. If crossing a 4-lane intersection I'll be off the throttle before I cross the first lane. From what I am reading in the cargo bike community thats the method just about everyone with a throttle prefers. When I was commuting on a non-cargo bike I did the same thing. A throttle is an essential tool in the toolbox.

(and this is another one of those villagers/pitchforks kinds of topics)

 

[Smaug]

I can definitely see the merits of a cadence sensor. A torque sensor will still require the rider to exert some force and won't offer any sympathies in the case of exhaustion. I did have two concerns about the cadence sensor however:

With a torque sensor and at higher PAS levels, a person can be totally exhausted, because the assistance it gives is so high at those PAS levels. On my Level.2, I rarely go above PAS 1. It lets me work pretty hard to get beyond 20 mph.

1. The lack of variable speed and therefore lack of some control.

Most bikes with cadence sensors have a throttle, too. As someone says above, she can start with throttle, then start pedaling so it doesn't come in unexpectedly. There will still be a learning curve though.

And maybe I misunderstand, so please let me know if I am. You essentially adjust (do Aventon and Lectric cadence sensors allow for PAS adjustment?

Yes. All eBikes do.

Then select your level of PAS; and when peddling, the bike will speed up to the selected cadence level. So, if the peddle assist level 1 is 6mph, you will travel a constant 6mph until you stop peddling or change PAS level?

(this is with a cadence sensor) When you start pedaling, the motor will kick in and take you to 6 mph. If you pedal faster, the motor is not helping at that point, so you can still get exercise. If you slow your pedaling so that you're not going at least 6 mph, the motor will keep you going 6 mph as long as it sees the crankshaft turning.

From there, if you increase the PAS level, it will take you to the speed associated with that PAS level, and work as above.

Not that this is an issue when riding solo, nor a huge issue if riding with someone, but that second person would have to match to travel together. Just another observation; also if you want to travel between two cadence rates, that wouldn't be an option.

Yes, it can be hard to match speeds precisely. The other day, my wife and I were out, she was on the XP Lite. (cadence sensor, hub motor) As I was on a mechanical bike, she couldn't just keep pedaling and match me, as my speed was varying a lot more according to conditions. No problem, she left it on PAS1, and then just modulated the throttle to match my speed.

This is one of the real beauties of eBikes: you can get as much or little exercise as you want! The lazy people will just treat it like a scooter and throttle everywhere. People who want exercise can get it, but don't have to get dragged down to 3 mph with a headwind or uphill stretch. Or get the same amount of exercise as s/he would get on a mechanical bike, but at higher speeds.

2. The second one has to do with:

Does this also happen with the middrive?

Mid drive and hub drive bikes with torque sensing only assist under PAS when it senses you pedaling. (but with some amount of torque, not just spinning) Many of them also have throttle.

eBikes sold at bike shops near me tend to be Class 1 only: that mean no throttle, but PAS that will assist up to max. 20 mph. They are the most intuitive, the least risky from a liability perspective and are accepted on every bike trail.

The torque sensor, while requiring the rider to exert their own energy to move the bike, won't just kick in and speed the rider up to a marked speed. Therefore a more "natural" feel as the sensor is matching the rider's effort?

Just so.

I believe that the cadence sensor doesn't kick in unless you pedal, so to some extent the rider will be expecting to move, but I do worry a little about that "acceleration" to a speed even if it is slight.

It is shocking at first. To me, I felt a rush of excitement. To my wife, it was scary. I got over it immediately, she's just getting over it now after several hours in the saddle.

With the added pace control and the lack of a motor acceleration, I might be overthinking this and obviously I'll aim to have her try both, but maybe the torque sensor might be the best option for my wife's situation? I'll have her try the Aventon Soltera, Pace 500 and the Level.2 (torque) to see what she likes best. As always, any critiques would be welcomed.

This is a good approach. You've done your homework.

It might not also be a bad idea to let her talk to the bike shop salesman. I've found spouses often listen to helpful strangers more readily than to their own spouses. Just have her keep in mind he's going to push what he has in stock, so if he bashes the competition, take that with a grain of salt.

I predict she'll like the Pace 500 or 350 best. More upright = better feeling of control, initially.

 

[Osgood71]

My wife has all of 46 miles on her Velotric Discover 1, and she handles it like she's been riding for ever.
Stopped for a "how you doing " check next to a 1948 poppin johnny.
She's 5'4" and 120 something dripping wet, and handles it just fine for a heavy bike.
When I see what e-bikes are going for in bike shops and sporting goods stores, I feel like I stole these two.
$1199 each and $200 off that for buying two. Free shipping also!

I don't know where you could test ride one, but before you spend twice that on something else, it would be worth it if you could.

 

[Tacticooldennis]

My bike is super heavy, its 12kw with 21" dirt bike tires, the whole thing weighs in at 170lbs. It feels like a 125cc. You have to be mindful of hills but on flat ground it's pretty easy to ride. The best way to know a bike is to give it a push, pedal it without the motor on. Get a feel for the bike before the ease of power. Cause if you ever run out of juice you're gonna want to know if you can push it, or call for a ride. I've had to push mine a half mile with a rear flat. never ride farther than you're willing to walk, or push

 

[Smaug]

My bike is super heavy, its 12kw with 21" dirt bike tires, the whole thing weighs in at 170lbs. It feels like a 125cc. You have to be mindful of hills but on flat ground it's pretty easy to ride. The best way to know a bike is to give it a push, pedal it without the motor on. Get a feel for the bike before the ease of power. Cause if you ever run out of juice you're gonna want to know if you can push it, or call for a ride. I've had to push mine a half mile with a rear flat. never ride farther than you're willing to walk, or push

It's a good point, but if we only ever rode that far, we wouldn't get too far. Pushing half a mile... you got off EASY, considering a lot of them will go 50+ miles on a charge. You could have been pushing 25 miles! (or calling an Uber van)

An alternative is to be prepared with a spare inner tube and carefully-planned tool set, as a start:

• Wrenches for the axle nuts. Sometimes, you need two sizes, as the one that goes over the hollow side is bigger. These are NEVER included in the folding multi-tools.
• Bicycle multi-tool. These usually have hex (Allen) drivers, a flat screwdriver and a #2 Phillips driver
• I like to also have a plier-based multi-tool. (Gerber, Victorinox and Leatherman all make nice ones)
  • Some of the better ones have 1/4" drive hex bit drivers, and you can pack them with the hex bits you need for your bike)
• Tire levers
• Pump or CO2 tire kit
• latex or nitrile gloves, if you want to be anything like clean
• Inner tube

The problem is this means you need to put all that heavy stuff in your bike's luggage, but man, if you don't have someone you can call for a rescue, it is sure nice to have that stuff with you!

 

[Tacticooldennis]

Yeah that's a lot to carry for a motorcycle-sized tire change. Changing a tire is hard enough with a hub motor in my garage, I wouldn't want to do it out in the dirt. The better plan is for either a tire sealant or bib mousse and forget about filling air altogether. Right now I have an even harder tire and a ultra heavy-duty tube. I just go up one level higher for every fail.

 

[m@Robertson]

Yeah that's a lot to carry for a motorcycle-sized tire change. Changing a tire is hard enough with a hub motor in my garage, I wouldn't want to do it out in the dirt. The better plan is for either a tire sealant or bib mousse and forget about filling air altogether. Right now I have an even harder tire and a ultra heavy-duty tube. I just go up one level higher for every fail.

Its not that bad. Especially now that battery-powered mini-compressors have reached a point where you can rely on them.

I ride almost daily for routine transportation. You just have to have the ability to recover from a flat with that many chances for something bad to happen. The last time I had a tire blow - the first flat that Flatout sealant didn't just repair for me in two years - it was January 2023, freezing, the sun just went down and I had a Costco shopping cart worth of groceries packed into my cargo bike. Life sucked fixing it, but it would have sucked a lot worse if I couldn't get it done and then ride home.

(e)Bike Tool Kit – The 2022 Edition

In the last few months, I’ve made a few changes to my standard on-bike tool kits. Lets take a look.

talesontwowheels.com

 

[jjlrrw]

Hello everyone,

I have been doing several days of research here, but seem to be going in circles trying to narrow down a first E-Bike. Thought I would just create an account and hope you experienced riders might be gracious enough to recommend some bikes for further research based on my criteria.

The main wishes: a bike that feels like a bike instead of a scooter, when the assist is not being used, to feel like a proper bike. Capable of assisting up a decent grade incline but we only really ride on bike paths and casual road rides. Price ideally would be around $2,000 or less.

I have read many comments and complaints that say stay away from the online shops such as lectric, Aventon etc. and go with a brick and mortar Trek, Specialized for the customer service. Which I definitely see the value but the trade off is around $1,000 more. I do tend to subscribe to the buy once and save in the long run instead of now. I’ve read that some companies also might quickly abandon a model and the e parts that go with it. But are the others that bad at customer service?

I have also come to believe that a torque sensor is what I would like. But is that only for high end bikes? I can’t really find any info on that type of sensor.

I guess I am kind of lost. Anyone have any bike suggestions or critiques?I have one possible bike on my list but I don’t want to influence anyone’s thoughts. I would be greatly appreciative of any experienced commentary.

Thanks for taking the time to read!

I was going through the same thing most of last summer, I wanted to get an e-bike knowing I would be riding >60% gravel/dirt roads <40% blacktop. I am not or have in the past been a bike person the only other bikes I have own in my adult life were the $250 big box store bikes. My local shops only carried E-bikes starting in the $6K range. and not riding much I didn't want to go that route.

After a number of youtube reviews I set my budget <$2500, on my short list I had Himiway, Aventon, snap cycle, ride 1up and BeeCool but still was not sure, but then because of the two videos below I decided on the Velowave Ranger for me ($1350) and the Ghost for my wife ($1200) not knowing how much we would ride I didn't want to drop $5k plus.

1st video a guy explaining the differences in bikes in the $1K - $2K budget then the 2nd video "Velowave Ranger not my favorite E-bike" We have about 300 miles on them, so far all is good I feel the range is ~35miles.

 

[Craig27X]

2c from me. Built 2 Mid Drive BBS02 w/ 17Ah 52V on 26" tires & Rim brakes. Apx 50lbs using a Trek & a Fuji frames from apx 2009. From my limited exposure to a store bought hub bike- those do pedal harder when not assisted by battery vs Mid Drives. Had abt 2k into each when done -- thats after going through both completely, Cables/Casettes/Chains/Tires/Tubes/New "Happy Seats" Position correcting Handle bars & Stems/Rear Racks/yada/yada. Bought the best batteries too. Very Happy with how it turned out & pretty close to just like a non powered bike feel.

 

[20kmiles]

Hello everyone,

I have been doing several days of research here, but seem to be going in circles trying to narrow down a first E-Bike. Thought I would just create an account and hope you experienced riders might be gracious enough to recommend some bikes for further research based on my criteria.

The main wishes: a bike that feels like a bike instead of a scooter, when the assist is not being used, to feel like a proper bike. Capable of assisting up a decent grade incline but we only really ride on bike paths and casual road rides. Price ideally would be around $2,000 or less.

I have read many comments and complaints that say stay away from the online shops such as lectric, Aventon etc. and go with a brick and mortar Trek, Specialized for the customer service. Which I definitely see the value but the trade off is around $1,000 more. I do tend to subscribe to the buy once and save in the long run instead of now. I’ve read that some companies also might quickly abandon a model and the e parts that go with it. But are the others that bad at customer service?

I have also come to believe that a torque sensor is what I would like. But is that only for high end bikes? I can’t really find any info on that type of sensor.

I guess I am kind of lost. Anyone have any bike suggestions or critiques?I have one possible bike on my list but I don’t want to influence anyone’s thoughts. I would be greatly appreciative of any experienced commentary.

Thanks for taking the time to read!

Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, Shimano mid motors are pedal torque sensing which will feel like a normal bicycle with very good assistance to climb mountains. Those are good billion $ companies that did good R&D, Safety, UL and warranty for their products.

 

[Smaug]

Well, I’d say the OP has enough information to make a decision now. He just has to avoid analysis paralysis and GO for it.

 

[neutron]

Well, I’d say the OP has enough information to make a decision now. He just has to avoid analysis paralysis and GO for it.

Yes, curious to know what he ended up with...

 

[ElHegpah]

I know it is all hip and trendy to say there are no gender differences, but the simple facts are that many women are uncomfortable with power they cannot readily control and are easily frightened. Ignore this at your peril.

Torque sensors increase cost and complexity, require a specialized bottom bracket with a power input, and limit your choices of compatible controllers with what for many is minimal or nonexistent benefit. About $100 or more for the sensor, versus $10 to 15 for the cadence version, plus it has an easy install versus much more difficult for the torque version. Specialized tools most do not have, snake a power cable, calibrate and install on controller, frequent version changes. Almost all controllers support cadence, far fewer support torque, and then often only one of three or four available options.

 

[Smaug]

<snip>

Torque sensors increase cost and complexity, require a specialized bottom bracket with a power input, and limit your choices of compatible controllers with what for many is minimal or nonexistent benefit. About $100 or more for the sensor, versus $10 to 15 for the cadence version, plus it has an easy install versus much more difficult for the torque version. Specialized tools most do not have, snake a power cable, calibrate and install on controller, frequent version changes. Almost all controllers support cadence, far fewer support torque, and then often only one of three or four available options.

He's not looking to build his own, so none of this stuff matters. A torque sensor will bump up the price of the bike a few hundred bucks, but if s/he values a smooth natural feeling of the motor engaging, it adds value.

 

[Mark P]

May want to consider joining a local E-bike club and pick some people's brains and ride their bikes or test them at the dealer you bought them from.

 

[knightrider]

I agree with everything Evil Spock said, @Cmid02 . I also agree with Jerry’s sentiment about not closing yourself out from ebikes available through online distributors. I do recommend, however, that if you go that route, make sure there is a Local Bike Shop which will service the brand you choose.

I have an Aventon Pace 500 and I love everything about it. By adding on fenders and a rear rack, it fits my needs like a glove. But that’s based on what I like to use my ebike for. It really depends on what kind of riding you plan to be doing.

It appears, from your OP, that your riding is similar to mine. I have intermittently pedaled my bike with no power on a few very long distant trips in the past in order to stretch battery life. But fair warning….you’ll want to be in a low gear, and I wouldn’t want to go far like that. If you pedal on PAS 1 or 2, then it will probably have a closer feel for what you’re looking for. I’m a PAS 4 kinda guy .

Snoop I got 4,000 mi. on a 2021 pace 500 and never put a wrench on it other than to remove rear and front wheels for tire change and replace one broken spoke. I have let everyone around here ride and borrow it. If you pedal it you can get 50 miles on a charge. That is pedal assist 1 and 2 and your help. That`s flat lands of Louisiana and Bentonville Ark. riding.