E-bicycles with regenerative braking

"A"

"A"

Well-known member
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Mini Cooper maker launches four new electric bicycles with regenerative braking

Motor & battery in rear hub..

https://electrek.co/2022/04/26/mini...-electric-bicycles-with-regenerative-braking/
Screen-Shot-2022-04-26-at-10.05.14.jpg
 
DCErik said:
Mini promises a free lunch. At least they're not doing a fattie, I guess.
Click to expand...
It's all a gimmick to separate fools from their money. The amount of capture varies drastically depending on the weight of the moving mass, terrain, and most importantly rider dedication to squeeze out the max capture rate. 99.9% of ebike riders wouldn't benefit from regen at all, and of that 99.9% of riders, only 1% would be willing to pay for the ability. The money is much better spent on owning high-quality, high-capacity batteries in the 1st place... but those don't come on production ebikes. Why? Because the manufacturers want you to burn through the packs and buy more. The bikes are sold with packs so small they require full charge and full depletion to get anywhere close to the advertised range. Even the chargers they provide are designed to get the minimum number of recharge cycles out of the batteries. Owning a battery big enough that you can ride further than you want in a day on only 65% of the pack's capacity will triple the life of the battery. Extending the number of recharge cycles from approx. 400 to over 1200. But ya need a great charger to manage the battery like that... the Grin Satiator is another expense people don't want to pay. Another benefit of a big battery is that you can charge at higher amperage with faster charge times without stressing the individual cells. The amount of power you can capture from regen hubs is negligible in comparison and completely unnecessary with a good battery. You ever seen those hand crank flashlights? It's very much the same as those. I'm actually one of those 0.01%'ers that would benefit from a regen hub. I pull a single-wheel suspension trailer for extended rides that I could install a hub motor only for its capture ability. On descents using the motor for regen would slow the bike and in the process decrease brake pad wear... that's almost more important than the minuscule amount of recaptured voltage. The point is that it's not even worthwhile for me and how I ride at this point to pull around the extra weight of the motor... let alone the additional cost.

The question you have to ask yourself is why would anyone choose a hub drive in the 1st place... even if it is sold on its capture ability? Why? Because they are cheaper and a little easier to mount on a bike. Are you sensing a theme here?

Someday they will have regen for ebikes that actually work until then people will try to sell these.
 
BBassett said:
It's all a gimmick to separate fools from their money.
Click to expand...
Infuriating how many are eager to fall for it, but I guess the appeal to non-cyclists is a major driver of ebike adoption. Totally agree on the production batteries, too (aside from the big MFGs like Trek, SC, etc.), which was one of the major drivers of my decision to DIY. 930Wh of happy 30Q cells means I can ride all week on a charge, including a big day out on the weekend, and never have to worry about the cells getting stressed, and all that for the same $550 you'd pay to replace the battery in an Ancheer or similar.
 
DCErik said:
930Wh of happy 30Q cells means I can ride all week on a charge, including a big day out on the weekend, and never have to worry about the cells getting stressed...
Click to expand...
My packs are 2058Wh when fully charged and I will use 3/4 of that on a long ride. Current battery tech will take me further than I want to ride in a day already... what I want to see is that same range with 1/2 the weight. Oh, and half the cost too. That's not asking for too much.
 
BBassett said:
My packs are 2058Wh when fully charged and I will use 3/4 of that on a long ride.
Click to expand...
At my standard 8Wh/mi I'd be 192 miles from home after using 3/4 charge on that beast, but I usually ride with pushbikes and keep it at low assist.
 
I
DCErik said:
At my standard 8Wh/mi I'd be 192 miles from home after using 3/4 charge on that beast, but I usually ride with pushbikes and keep it at low assist.
Click to expand...
I rarely go over power level 3 of 9 while riding unless I'm just riding for speed close to home, but adding anywhere from 40 to 150 lbs. on the bike, not to mention potentially another 100 lbs. of gear and trailer starts to bite into my potential range. What you have to remember is that the motors performance isn't anywhere close to the same with a full charge as it is on a remaining 30% charge. You never know how far you can go until you test it out for real, most people don't care because they can already ride further than they want. I don't bother with WH per mile, all I do is look at how many Ah it takes to charge the battery back to the starting voltage. I've got 22.75Ah to play with on 65% of the battery's capacity. But... you're right, the slower you go the farther you can go.
 
BBassett said:
What you have to remember is that the motors performance isn't anywhere close to the same with a full charge as it is on a remaining 30% charge. You never know how far you can go until you test it out for real, most people don't care because they can already ride further than they want. I don't bother with WH per mile, all I do is look at how many Ah it takes to charge the battery back to the starting voltage. I've got 22.75Ah to play with on 65% of the battery's capacity. But... you're right, the slower you go the farther you can go.
Click to expand...

I run a 52v, and don't notice any voltage sag, but I also almost never run below 40%, and only charge above 80% a couple times yearly for cell balancing. Having 40% more capacity than you need is key to a happy battery!
 
Keep the assist as low as possible and it feels the same even after 70 miles. The experts at EM3ev assured me that even 65% (charge to 85% capacity, and deplete to 20% capacity) was overkill for extending the life of the battery. For me, that's 56.8V down to 45.4V.
 
BBassett said:
It's all a gimmick to separate fools from their money. The amount of capture varies drastically depending on the weight of the moving mass, terrain, and most importantly rider dedication to squeeze out the max capture rate. 99.9% of ebike riders wouldn't benefit from regen at all, and of that 99.9% of riders, only 1% would be willing to pay for the ability. The money is much better spent on owning high-quality, high-capacity batteries in the 1st place... but those don't come on production ebikes. Why? Because the manufacturers want you to burn through the packs and buy more. The bikes are sold with packs so small they require full charge and full depletion to get anywhere close to the advertised range. Even the chargers they provide are designed to get the minimum number of recharge cycles out of the batteries. Owning a battery big enough that you can ride further than you want in a day on only 65% of the pack's capacity will triple the life of the battery. Extending the number of recharge cycles from approx. 400 to over 1200. But ya need a great charger to manage the battery like that... the Grin Satiator is another expense people don't want to pay. Another benefit of a big battery is that you can charge at higher amperage with faster charge times without stressing the individual cells. The amount of power you can capture from regen hubs is negligible in comparison and completely unnecessary with a good battery. You ever seen those hand crank flashlights? It's very much the same as those. I'm actually one of those 0.01%'ers that would benefit from a regen hub. I pull a single-wheel suspension trailer for extended rides that I could install a hub motor only for its capture ability. On descents using the motor for regen would slow the bike and in the process decrease brake pad wear... that's almost more important than the minuscule amount of recaptured voltage. The point is that it's not even worthwhile for me and how I ride at this point to pull around the extra weight of the motor... let alone the additional cost.

The question you have to ask yourself is why would anyone choose a hub drive in the 1st place... even if it is sold on its capture ability? Why? Because they are cheaper and a little easier to mount on a bike. Are you sensing a theme here?

Someday they will have regen for ebikes that actually work until then people will try to sell these.
Click to expand...
On top of everything you said, these bikes are relatively expensive underpowered and have very small batteries. However, they do a good job of camouflaging the E bike thing. These are all designed for the EU market thankfully because of that we probably won't see him in the US.
 
Hoggdoc said:
On top of everything you said, these bikes are relatively expensive underpowered and have very small batteries. However, they do a good job of camouflaging the E bike thing. These are all designed for the EU market thankfully because of that we probably won't see him in the US.
Click to expand...
I'd love to have an efficient regen ability built into everything so that every time you touch a brake you are recapturing a little power... I probably won't see it in my life, but someday. Every time I ride I thank God and the American government for the CPSA definition of an ebike and that I don't have to ride in Europe.
 
BBassett said:
I'd love to have an efficient regen ability built into everything so that every time you touch a brake you are recapturing a little power... I probably won't see it in my life, but someday. Every time I ride I thank God and the American government for the CPSA definition of an ebike and that I don't have to ride in Europe.
Click to expand...
I hear ya, I don't know why the people in the EU put up with that. Maximum speed 15.5 mph seriously. When I used to ride my pedal bikes all the time years ago I would cruise at that speed all the time. So it looks like the people making the decisions in the EU don't want Ebikes to be any faster than paddle bikes. I just watched a very long video by the fellow that runs grim technologies out of Canada. It's about an hour and a half long him talking about regenerative breaking the advantages an hour can be done and all the problems implementing it in a reasonable way and like you I don't see we'll see it in our lifetime.
 
Hoggdoc said:
I hear ya...
Click to expand...
With battery technology advancing as fast as it is no one is going to sink much money into evolving ebike regen ability, no money in it. Sooner or later the EU will learn that just because the bike has a 1000W motor doesn't mean you have to ride fast. I've ridden their heavily populated bike infrastructure and didn't like it, but I don't like riding in a pack of motorcycles either, I'd rather ride in traffic with well-educated courteous drivers... Bahhahahahahaa ahhhhhhhhhh, like that place, exists.
 
Mini is not an ebike company, the move to introduce an ebike is likely targeted towards Mini owners, not so much towards general ebike market.
Niche market for regen capability and traditional diamond frame for an ebike without the bulk of external battery is something unique that few can offer.
Regardless of its performance, there is a market for it; if it doesn't fit your taste or needs, keep it to yourself.
Plenty of folks in the world that have different needs for an ebike, including this one.
 
A said:
... keep it to yourself...
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion... but I live in a free country and will express my informed, experienced, and educated opinion about anything I want. At least this one IS an ebike, there are so many confused people these days that just don't know anything about them. There's so much more to ebikes than finding pictures of them. You ride safe... hehehehe.
 
BBassett said:
Thanks for the suggestion... but I live in a free country and will express my informed, experienced, and educated opinion about anything I want. At least this one IS an ebike, there are so many confused people these days that just don't know anything about them. There's so much more to ebikes than finding pictures of them. You ride safe... hehehehe.
Click to expand...
I was just thinking the same thing wasn't about to write something what you stated. But you have to remember A may not be from the United States or he could be and be one of those people that like the way Twitter used to censor people that didn't agree with them.
 

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