Buying an eBike vs eBike conversion

[m@Robertson]

You can also do a conversion and not try to be cheap about it. Go that route and you avoid all the issues that come with ebike manufacturers using cheap components so they can (understandably) make a profit. The value-priced direct-to-consumer bikes in particular are rife with parts that would NEVER be acceptable on an analog bike. Witness for example crankarms and the entire drivetrain on a hub-assisted ebike. Since the drivetrain is unnecessary on such a bike, the manufacturers know its only going to be used by a rider who is pedaling along lightly with assist on, so the crankarms, chainring, derailleur and rear cluster tend to be bottom-of-the-line, where there is a new bottom established since ebikes became a thing. Your generic Lasco crankarm would never be found on a proper bike. But its commonly gotten away with.

Another example? Brakes. 80 lb bikes with cabled brakes, thin, small-ish (less than 203mm) rotors for the bike's size and speed, and housing that is not compressionless.... Most low-cost beginner ebike riders will not even know what compressionless housing is or why they want it. Same with not having top quality steel cables that don't stretch so much the brakes need adjusting every few weeks.

Build the bike yourself and, if you are a smart cyclist to start with, everything you put on that bike is going to be equivalent or superior to anything put on a manufactured ebike priced in the $4k+ range. That conversion bike will be approaching the same price range, but you picked prime components for it and could to that because you don't have to leave room for a profit margin.

Of course, I started out cheap too. No reason not to do that so long as you understand basic fundamentals. MTB hardtail for instance is pretty much always going to be plenty strong. Road bike with spindly stays... not so much (edit: although a BBS02 with assist levels set up smart is perfect for an old-school road bike frame).

 

[m@Robertson]

This is one of my first built bikes. An old Specialized Stumpjumper with a strong rear triangle that was well-able to handle the 2 kw mini-Cyclone (peaks at 4kw but it was still gutless despite the fancy high numbers). Brakes were old school cabled and the bike was hit by an inattentive motorist before i had a chance to assess long term wear issues. This was in 2017 and I think the Stump is a 2004 model that was long-forgotten in the corner of my garage. After and Before views.

 

[m@Robertson]

And it doesn't need to be a new frame. I have rescued frames before. Strip them down and powder-coat them for $60 if you can find a good local industrial powder coat shop. Better still: Go to an engine overhaul shop and have them magna-flux the frame for $20 to see if it has any cracks. My Stormtrooper from 2018 was originally a ratty-looking Motobecane Lurch frame that came out looking brand-spanking new, and still does today. This pic was taken in 2022 so the bike is still going strong (note the sign I am leaning it up against... cue the music).

How To Build An Ebike From Scratch: Hunting

We figured out what kind of bike and frame we wanted in the previous step. Now its time to hunt down that frame.

talesontwowheels.com

And as far as rescues go, I built this bike with a frame from ... 1999. But only after a long search. In fact I did a whole series on how to do this, using this bike as the subject build. It remains my absolute favorite 'traditional' bike that is not a large-sized cargo bike. One of the criteria for it was it had to fit into the back of my car, and you can see why below. Thats a 24-year-old frame, but built with the best stuff I could put on it. Because of its age I kept the brake rotors small and to-size for the period but the 4-piston calipers can handle the most serious action.

DIY doesn't have to be half-assed, and you don't have to be an engineer to build smart and come up with something better than you could buy.

 

["A"]

Those conversions look great, none of them look like they would cost under $2k to build.

It's hard to compete with 750w ebikes with 1300w peak output, hydraulic disc brakes at $1500 delivered to your driveway.

 

[m@Robertson]

none of them look like they would cost under $2k to build.

Not even close. But I'm looking at the comparison with the components found in more expensive bikes. Stuff like brakes, drivetrain, rims, hubs, frame... even the saddle. None of those things are related to the 'e' in ebike but they all make for a better bike. DIY can yield a higher-quality result, assuming the builder is up to the task. I do think the Lectric longtail is a great new entry in the marketplace, but its still at the lower end of quality as far as bike parts are concerned, and the motor itself (a hub not a mid). But the value received for the low price is significant, and I'd like to think its going to shove a stick in Rad Power Bikes' butt insofar as using capable parts is concerned.

 

["A"]

Not even close. But I'm looking at the comparison with the components found in more expensive bikes. Stuff like brakes, drivetrain, rims, hubs, frame... even the saddle. None of those things are related to the 'e' in ebike but they all make for a better bike. DIY can yield a higher-quality result, assuming the builder is up to the task. I do think the Lectric longtail is a great new entry in the marketplace, but its still at the lower end of quality as far as bike parts are concerned, and the motor itself (a hub not a mid). But the value received for the low price is significant, and I'd like to think its going to shove a stick in Rad Power Bikes' butt insofar as using capable parts is concerned.

Additionally, the fact that acoustic bicycles are not designed nor meant to handle the extra stress from more weight (of electrical motor, battery & controller) & power output of the electrical motor.
When something breaks on the donor frame, there is no warranty from bicycle manufacturer when your mention an electrical motor was installed at the time of frame failure.

Another consideration is the time investment of installing an electrical motor conversion.
DYI would likely require you to figure out how to attach the controller & battery onto the bicycle.
Not securing those items onto the bicycle can be costly mistake when stuff start to fall off during test rides.

For the quality under $1500 as a complete ebike that is meant to handle the extra stress & power output; I think cargo ebikes are far less hassle than converting any bicycle into an ebike.
Lower quality (in comparison to $2-3K donor FS MTB) they may be, still comes with manufacture warranty and customer support of some kind when stuff goes wrong.

 

[m@Robertson]

Additionally, the fact that acoustic bicycles are not designed nor meant to handle the extra stress from more weight (of electrical motor, battery & controller) & power output of the electrical motor.
When something breaks on the donor frame, there is no warranty from bicycle manufacturer when your mention an electrical motor was installed at the time of frame failure.

One of the things a person who modifies a bike or anything else accepts is that they are the warranty now. If you are a hands-on type of person this is known coming out of the gate and you're fine with it. If you are not, then don't go there.

I would not be concerned about increased power output on a bicycle frame, unless the builder is trying to work with something inherently unsuitable... but that is a very short list. Any quality full suspension mtb frame is going to be just fine. By extension, that means just about any hardtail mtb frame is going to be fine as well. Stays on any mtb will be more than enough to handl a motor's load unless - again - you go hard core into 3-5kw territory.

You have to remember a bottom bracket on such a bike is meant to be physically stood upon while the bike bounces around a trail. Its going to take stresses light years beyond the traditional 150w or so you'd expect a rider to simply pedal thru the crankarms. A motor and its Nm on such a bike aren't going to cause an issue.

Another consideration is the time investment of installing an electrical motor conversion.
DYI would likely require you to figure out how to attach the controller & battery onto the bicycle.
Not securing those items onto the bicycle can be costly mistake when stuff start to fall off during test rides.

Practically speaking, these are trivial matters to address. But if working hands-on like this is not your bag, then it may seem like more than it is, which is fine. My own father was such a person and I respected him greatly. But he had no idea what to do with tools beyond the basics, and the very concept of doing something himself vs. paying "a professional" to do something he was not specifically trained to do was anathema.

He got along like that just fine. DIY is not for everyone.

 

["A"]

Trivial matters to you they may seem, but when things go wrong, the liability is still solely on the person who did the DYI conversion.
Zero fallback on donor bike manufacturer not conversion kit manufacturer.
Even if you have a "professional" perform the conversion, liability still remain to the operator of the converted ebike.

Speaking from converting dozen of regular bicycles into ebikes since 2013, when many options are available for $1500 ebikes that come with manufacturer warranty and customer service, that can satisfy majority of the cycling activities, DYI conversions simply become more trouble than the money & time involved to perform the conversion, not practical.

 

[HillAversion]

Eh, when you do a conversion on a bike you already own, warranty issues are kind of beside the point. I converted a seven-year-old Specialized bike I didn't want to just pitch, so I have nothing to lose warranty-wise. I'm inclined to agree with m. If you're somewhat handy and willing to learn how to do basic maintenance it can be a good experience.

I don't regret doing my e-bike build. Maybe I will someday, but I doubt it. If you start with a solid, well maintained bike in good condition and don't abuse it, serious builder remorse seems unlikely, particularly if you're willing and able to maintain the bike yourself. I'm not sure doing a conversion on a rusty old discount store bike is a great idea, but a quality bike in good condition should be fine. I'll probably buy a pre-built e-bike at some point in life, but for now I'm happy with what I've got.

Like the tattoo says, no regerts.

 

["A"]

The dozen of ebike conversions that I've done since 2013 have been mostly high end bicycles,
downhill bicycles that turned into ebikes capable of 40+ mph,
Converted with hub motors, BBSHD, BBSO2 kits.
I don't regret building the ebikes I've done, but from my experience, the effort & $$ spent are simply not worth the hassle when brand new, complete & well capable ebikes are available under $1500 with performance that are well suited for majority of cycling activities.. Additionally offer free shipping, warranty & customer service.
More time spent riding instead of fiddling with the ride; that's a better investment IMO.

 

[m@Robertson]

from my experience, the effort & $$ spent are simply not worth the hassle when brand new, complete & well capable ebikes are available under $1500 with performance that are well suited for majority of cycling activities.. Additionally offer free shipping, warranty & customer service.
More time spent riding instead of fiddling with the ride; that's a better investment IMO.

To each his own, of course. But my experience across many bike builds as well is the opposite. You build the bike. You're done. Go ride it. If you did your job smart everything will not only hold together but thrive.

40+ mph bikes on the other hand - what you're stating you work on - are another matter. If you are building bikes in that speed range then they are exceeding what even uprated bicycle parts should be asked to safely handle. I swear by 4-piston hydraulic brakes with 203mm wide, 2.3mm thick downhill rotors. But at 40+ those brakes (Magura MT5's) are in over their head, as are anything else in their class when being asked to stop a 60 lb bike with a 200 lb rider. Likewise repeated potholes at 40 could have profound consequences to frame and fork at a variety of places.

I have been there and done that myself on one of my commuters and dialed it back because it was too much on even a top end USA-made chromoly frame. For an earlier one, I learned where the smart limit was by cracking the frame. 6600 miles and still going strong on the bike I dialed back a tad (34 mph peak but more typical is a straight 28). The one I killed had about 4000 miles on it. Both are/were twin hub powered awd ebikes used purely as urban commuters and light duty cargo bikes.

But... those are apples and we're talking oranges. A 20 mph Lectric cargo bike (or anything barely resembling a Class 2) cannot be compared to a high power DIY build in terms of warranty, safety or honestly much of anything else. Those are purely sports toys and not practical day to day transportation ebikes. The wear and breakage rates when you are up in that league are thru the roof relative to a more typical DIY mid drive build. You can't expect to be able to depend on it day after day.

But you can if you stay away from the extremes and stick with proven solutions. I have BBSHD powered bikes that have thousands of miles on them. One, I have been riding every day for the last two years and I have done *nothing* to it. Which is typical of that platform. Sure I have tinkered around with changing chainrings to try and get optimum cadence, but that is not repair. A DIY ebike, properly built with smart components, should be an absolutely dependable daily driver. But if you hot rod it with BAC or Ludicrous controllers, 72v batteries and whatnot, you kiss that reliability goodbye. Like you would for any hotrod. But a hot rodder knows this and accepts it as the cost of playing the game.

Apples and oranges.

I'm sure you don't need the following, but for anyone who is looking to step into this without experience up-front:

How To Build a Mid Drive Ebike That Doesn’t Break

Mid drives up the ante on the required competence of the builder. Read this so your bike lasts without things breaking or wearing out early.

talesontwowheels.com

EDIT: And to restate again - There is absolutely nothing wrong with staying away from DIY and focusing solely on buying a turnkey, manufactured ebike, wither direct-to-consumer or with your local bike shop's dealer support. If your personal priorities are such where that is what you are comfortable with, then by all means go that route and enjoy the ride.

 

["A"]

Well, call me a convert who just want to ride over working on bikes.

After converting enough bicycles into ebikes for all sorts of different types of cycling;
my conclusion is that majority of riders looking to get into ebikes are better off buying something cheap (under $1500) to get a feel of how they like riding ebikes before investing more time or effort into more expensive ebikes or converting their mt. bike that's been sitting for ages.

Because the conversion kit & battery likely will cost you near $700, and you will still need to spend the time to install it and figure out how to keep everything attached to your age old mt. bike.
Safety concerns, designated performance parameters of your age old mt. bike may not be completely compatible with additional electric motor power output & weight.

Less hassle and more peace of mind if you buy a complete ebike that gets shipped to your driveway, comes with instructions, warranty and customer service that's under $1500 or even $1k.
For majority of folks who just want to hop on a bike, get the ebike experience; currently we have plenty of options in ebikes that can suit that purpose without going through the trouble of conversion.
Not only there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, as a matter of fact, it is just less complicated than trying to convert an existing bicycle into an ebike. Trying to stay alive on a bike among traffic is complicated enough.

 

[Greg47]

The thing that makes me cringe is the people who build an ebike on a frame that is not going to be able to handle the extra stresses. It may look fine for now but it's a ticking time-bomb.

Probably also depends on how it’s ridden. I don’t see any more stress the way I ride electrified than I did without it on the three I’ve converted.

 

[Greg47]

Well, call me a convert who just want to ride over working on bikes.

After converting enough bicycles into ebikes for all sorts of different types of cycling;
my conclusion is that majority of riders looking to get into ebikes are better off buying something cheap (under $1500) to get a feel of how they like riding ebikes before investing more time or effort into more expensive ebikes or converting their mt. bike that's been sitting for ages.

Because the conversion kit & battery likely will cost you near $700, and you will still need to spend the time to install it and figure out how to keep everything attached to your age old mt. bike.
Safety concerns, designated performance parameters of your age old mt. bike may not be completely compatible with additional electric motor power output & weight.

Less hassle and more peace of mind if you buy a complete ebike that gets shipped to your driveway, comes with instructions, warranty and customer service that's under $1500 or even $1k.
For majority of folks who just want to hop on a bike, get the ebike experience; currently we have plenty of options in ebikes that can suit that purpose without going through the trouble of conversion.
Not only there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, as a matter of fact, it is just less complicated than trying to convert an existing bicycle into an ebike. Trying to stay alive on a bike among traffic is complicated enough.

Probably depends on the mechanical ability and enjoyment of building one for your exact needs with good components. Some of those low end, hop on and go ebikes, have the absolute cheapest ingredients, and warranty from China is a joke. When you go up to a better bike with solid local suppprt, the spread between DIY & readymade becomes much greater.

 

[Freddy1]

I haven't read the whole thread, but for what it's worth, unless someone enjoys working on things and has decent mechanical ability and equipment, don't even think about building your own.
For those with these skills, sure building your own is really the only way to go, but the average person doesn't have the gear and skill to do a decent job of crimping two wires together.

 

[Greg47]

I haven't read the whole thread, but for what it's worth, unless someone enjoys working on things and has decent mechanical ability and equipment, don't even think about building your own.
For those with these skills, sure building your own is really the only way to go, but the average person doesn't have the gear and skill to do a decent job of crimping two wires together.

Yep, if you can’t change a lightbulb, you probably shouldn’t convert a bike to electric.

 

[munirider]

What's the story with CYC mid drives? I haven't heard anything about them here and searching doesn't come up with anything much.

On their more powerful units they have a primary drive chain from the motor to the front chain sprocket instead of internal gearing. It looks like it would work well and it looks like it gives better chain alignment for the bicycle's drive chain .

I like that they have ISIS splined crank arms instead of square taper which hasn't been used on high end bicycles for some time now.

I am wondering if they are programable like Bafang is or if you are stuck with what they give you like most ebikes.

They have some very powerful motors the stealth at 1500W https://www.cycmotor.com/x1-stealth-gen-3 and the X1 PRO GEN 3 is 3,500 and 5,000W https://www.cycmotor.com/x1-pro-gen-3

I'm happy with the power my BBS02 has and its very quiet, I probably should have gone with the BBSHD not so much for more power but for better longevity. And as far as chain alignment goes, I had a straight 38 tooth sprocket on at first and the chain alignment was so bad you couldn't use the largest three sprockets on the rear cassette so that kind of defeats putting a smaller front sprocket on. The 44 tooth Bafang sprocket works much better and I am able to use all the gears. I ordered this 42 tooth offset sprocket and as soon as it gets here I think It'll be perfect. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GM634J5?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

 

[m@Robertson]

What's the story with CYC mid drives? I haven't heard anything about them here and searching doesn't come up with anything much.

On their more powerful units they have a primary drive chain from the motor to the front chain sprocket instead of internal gearing. It looks like it would work well and it looks like it gives better chain alignment for the bicycle's drive chain .

I like that they have ISIS splined crank arms instead of square taper which hasn't been used on high end bicycles for some time now.

I own one. An early Gen 1 X1 Pro, with a custom controller. Back in the day Cyc was making a good motor but had issues with their controllers. I opted out and bought one from a CYC dealer at the time who was doing custom badass versions. For mine, which has maybe the first small chainring done on an X1 Pro (its also the very first black one, a feature so new they only had grey arms to go with it, which I was fine with). It was pumping out 4000w on the one time I opened it up on the street and let the thingjust go. No idea what its actual peak is I chickened out at what felt like about 40 mph. Like I said... custom controller. I don't use it for fast street riding its an enduro.

The current X1 Pro is at gen3 and apparently the controllers - which are now totally different - are good stuff. Very programmable. Compare the X1 Pro to the former king of the external-chain mid drives (the Cyclone) and there is nothing but qualitative improvement. Just the fact that it uses a kart chain is a gigantic step up. Its sky-high rpm capability is another but it is mechanically much improved period. I had a Cyclone-powered bike (60a Kelly controller) and its night and day between the two.

Cyc motors are louder than Bafangs. But they have a much higher-level feature set. Bafangs are essentially the same motors they were many years ago. CYCs are on a constantly-improving development path. The Stealth is a very strong step up as a lighter, smaller version of the same motor. the Photon is a direct shot across the bow of Bafang and I think it is on the path to being the premier easy-install, self-contained kit motor. If the rumors of a more powerful follow-on prove accurate, the next version is going to be a direct besting of the BBSHD. Right now, the Photon is right in the middle between BBS02 and BBSHD in terms of performance.

If you want performance details on the Photon, Cap Codswallop has done the definitive series on that. This is just one of several vids he has done.

 

[munirider]

Nice, looks like the real trail monster you got there! I'm glad to hear that the CYCs are programable and have a well built controller.

Next question, I'm looking for a full suspension XC mountain bike frame to build an e trail bike. It looks like most new XC and downhill frames the down tube goes forward before swooping up to the head tube some even have the bottom bracket behind the seat tube. Like this bike in the attached image. It looks like your bike has some of that but not as extreme as the bike I attached. What is the bike above and what is your favorite full suspension for both ease of mounting a mid drive and also enough room in the frame for a good sized battery. Does the CYC give you a bit more leeway for mounting on these kind of bike frames than a Bafang BBSHD?

I found this older Santa Cruz Blur XC frame that looks good https://www.ebay.com/itm/256085874743 I'm looking for something that will accommodate a 100mm travel fork.

 

[munirider]

Oops sorry I see you have addressed most of my questions in your.

How To Build a Mid Drive Ebike That Doesn’t Break​

Thanks again for all your help.